Jonathan Gosling: Leadership Profiles: Leadership Profiles: Leadership Insights: Tobias Leadership Center: Indiana University

Resolve Conflicts and Crisis

“Very often when I’m running leadership development work, I integrate into it exercises… because in the end it’s really about listening, understanding, appreciating… finding the ability to mobilize one’s own authority is central to my understanding of leadership.””

Description of the video:

Here we go. That was right. And we'll turn this one around and the counter is counting. So as I said, when the recorders were off, I'm going to read a short statement, get it in the record, and if I make any mistakes, you can correct it. And then I'm going to ask you permission to do this orally, and then I'm going to ask you questions. Today is July 21, 2022. My name is Philip Scarpino, Professor of History at Indiana University, Purdue University, Indianapolis, IPI. I also serve as Director of oral History for the rental Labias Center for Leadership Excellence at IPI. Today I have the privilege of interviewing Mr. Date at the headquarters of the Kepper Institute on Boulevard Place in Indianapolis. I will add that Mr. Hotep calls himself M, and I'll do that during this interview to keep things simple. This interview is sponsored by the Randall El. Center for Leadership Excellence. I would like to begin with a bit of background information on M. He was born and raised in Indianapolis, having attended Indianapolis Public School, 44 for elementary school, followed by Cathedral High School. He attended Purdue University for two years and IPY for three years, where he studied engineering. Is the executive director and co founder of the Kepper Institute along with Paul Fair and Panambra Ishi. The Kepper Institute, or KI, As, is an Indianapolis based grassroots nonprofit organization founded in the summer of 2003 as a way to provide tutoring for Paul Fair Son, and a few other high school aged African American young men. Ki became a nonprofit organization in 2004. It's grown from a small mentoring program to an organization that includes KI, new media, community controlled food initiative, and Scarabes Consulting. In general terms, KI focuses on youth and seeks solutions for community problems and challenges in the areas of education, environment, economy, and empowerment. And was also the founder in 1989, of a business known as Basement Enterprises, which specialized in T shirts and customer apparel. Basement Enterprises was a prequel to the Kipper Institute. We'll talk about Basement Enterprises and other aspects of M's fascinating life as we move through this interview. Before we begin, I'm going to ask you permission to do the same things you just agreed to do in writing, just in case the paperwork ever gets a lot. I'm asking you permission to record the interview. Prepare a verbatim transcript of this interview, deposit the interview on the verbatim transcript with the PUI, Special Collections and Archives and with the Tobias Center for Leadership Excellence, with the understanding that the directors of those organizations may make the interview and the transcript available to their patrons, which might include posting all or part of the audio recording and transcription to their respective websites. Are you okay with that? I'm good with that. Provide my permission. All right. A couple of clarifying people on Paul. All this is my interview. You have clarifying statements Because I must have told him something that Okay. Translate Well, let's make the clarifying statements. It was Paula Affairs, grandson. It was my son, Dia. All right. Who are the inspiration of the founding of Capper Institute and will touch my first name and ads is my last name. Okay. A combined. This name fell. I don't know how to sell AM BANA. Okay. Did I mispronounce that? I don't know. Okay. All right. So because this interview is sponsored by the Bias Center and are there focuses on leadership, I'm going to ask you start by asking you a few questions about leadership. So first question is, do you consider yourself to be a leader? Yes. Okay, and well, how would you characterize your style of leadership? Wow. In a skinny, I would say a servant leader. Okay. You know, the role of the leader is, is not so much leading, but providing opportunities to serve community and other than community and the collective interest of your community that you're serving, okay? Leaders are only successful if people are willing to follow them. Given all the years you've led in the general areas of racial, economic, social justice, how do you persuade people to follow you? Wow, I guess, well now you know there's a body of work, right? There's a history of sticking and stand. You say you're going to do something, you go out, you look up, you've done at this stage. If Ram says we're going to go over and do this, it's no longer a question of if we're going to read over and do it or not. I would say that's one, trying to model the behavior not always successfully, but model what it is that we talk about. I would say that's how Often folks support my leadership style. I would probably add a high level of empathy for community and people. Relationship building is primary, being a good deep listener, trying not to be overly judgmental, to be critical without passing judgment. I mean, those are all the characteristics I think over the years that have have people say yes. And of course, courage, you know, just the strength to no means, no, no don't mean yes. And being able, at least as it relates to the black community, to speak truth, to power on your own terms. So I think I'll stop there. Well, can you give an example of when you've spoken truth to power on your own terms? I know there are a lot, but just pick one so well, you know, I'll pick a personal example and I'm not sure if that example, gosh, there's so many of them. Most of the one that come to mind immediately interactions with, with the police. Back during my T shirt days, I was going to the bank once the credit union and the Friday and the bank line was packed, I'm in the drive through. And it was already a challenging, stressful day and I wanted to make a deposit through the window. And the bank manager told the clerk, no, he's got to come in the bank. I was behind on my car, my car, which I was I said, well, I can't come in today because I got to go and do something else. Just make the deposit and I'll come in Monday And they said, no, you have to come in the bank I said, well, no, just send my deposit out. They said no. So I parked. I left my vehicle running in the drive through and shut the whole drive through down, and went in the bank and raised the hell at the door. So with the manager and accused him of being, committing a crime, that led to five or six police officers. That then all of a sudden my rational mind stepped forward from the rage and said, this is Friday and you're going to spend the weekend in jail. I said, okay. So the officer asked me to leave, I left, and the bank manager realized at that point that he had made a mistake because it was his actions were illegal. And he followed me out trying to convince me to come back inside and where I said, no, I'm not coming inside. You've made your choice. Call the police on me. You're going to either give me my money back or you're going to deposit my account. I left and when I got got in on Monday, where was the money? It had been deposited in my account. That's an example of truth to power. That's just my own actions. But I'm sure those clerks who happen to all be black women realized that was not probably the first time that that particular behavior had been used by the management team. And that then led to, but I would probably guess the first time, they had somebody come in and told that manager, no, we're not doing your way. This is a legal act and we're going to do it my way. So the money ended up in my account, but at the end of the day, they won because a month later, my credit card was canceled. Just I don't know where, hey, we did it when we ran a credit report and your credit score doesn't warm, we continue to allow you to have this credit card with the bank. So that's a very personal example. Now, there are organizational examples, tons of those. I would probably say the ones that are speak most loudly to me in the present would be when we first decided to engage in community work outside of our own community on the truth, the prior piece and we were asked by a variety of stakeholders and our community to join at that time what was called Quality Life Initiative. In the North area Quality of life initiative. Yeah, of course, that's brand new for us. We only got involved because community folks, both businesses and actually some community folks that, hey, we need all to come and be involved in this space. Now, we had no idea why we need to be involved. But it became clear it was really about representing the voice that tend not to have voice in those spaces. We had a lot of experiences in that space. Paula get call. Just text me by mean, excuse me. We had a lot of interaction over the course of a year and a half in that space. That led to, I just told the story, actually ironic earlier today. One of these stories that led to having to negotiate for community interests above and beyond the interests of traditional voice of power. Nonprofit organization should resembing one of those. I think I'll stop there. So, as your career was developing, did you have anybody who mentored you? Kind of put you under their wing and No, not that she the pass. Well, you know, my my I would say my mother was my primary mentor, single parent from the south to this day. She's still at 90 giving me and directions. And if I don't follow them, she wants to talk to the elder round Miss Fair? I couldn't call it on the follow that's what my mother is doing, y, I would definitely say that she was and is one of the strongest voices, the good and bad leadership style. My resilience as a youngster. I grew up in the predominantly black neighborhood, Riverside area, and there was a Boy Scout troops involved in. I would say a lot of leadership came from being involved in that particular initiative. Boy Scout, all way to Eagle Scout and all the things that come out of that. You're an Eagle Scout. That's quite an accomplishment. You know, it runs my street Creek. So I don't go around and share that too, at, you know. Oh, yeah. Eagle Scout. But yeah. So but that was really tied to the leaders, Mr. Humbles, who ran the Boy Scouts group. We had quite a few children, and it actually took place a lot of it at school, 44. So Boy Scouts. And, you know, actually also as part of being a Boy Scout, I mentor a Cub Scout group oh, which was right there on the corner where we lived, one block on the, on the corner, and the Cub Scout group. And I would go over and mentor the Cub Scouts, which was a I would probably say, first real beginning journey into leadership tied to the relationship with Mr. Humbles, who the Boy Scouts other leaders. And that would be, the school teacher had a when I was there 44 in the seventh grade, I believe it was Mr. Shoemaker, young white guy, one of the few white teachers at the facility. And he ran shop and took a real interest in being a teacher in communities. So not did he teaches in the classroom. He would come hang out in our communities. And just a lot of mentoring tied to that particular craft and art form. In fact, I learned how to print T shirts in his class, and that's what led later to me being an entrepreuring t shirts. There are a number of other mentors in the community at that time. There were quite a few black entrepreneurs, businesses in the neighborhood. Mr. Brown lived up the street who ran, he repaired cars in his garage. And I would go down and, you know, fix my own car under his leadership and father with a got six, seven children, that was maybe every other weekend in his garage with myself and one or two other young men working on their cars. Some of the formative direct voices that I will call mentors. I would also say there are some intellectual mentors who did not live in this community with third world press. Who had an opportunity to meet at a conference we held at Black Student Union, IPI one here. And his name is what? Kekudiwl Press Two, Positive education. He gave a speech one day. It was so ironic because my friend Macao.

Understand Leadership

“In the book we did, we kind of said the key aspect of leadership is influence. It’s about influencing other people, their thoughts, their beliefs, their priorities, where they direct their energy... But of course to say it’s a social process of influencing… is really unsatisfactory because there are so many other social processes of influencing… What sets it apart… is taking authority, taking one’s authority to say ‘make it thus.'”

Description of the video:

Here we go. That was right. And we'll turn this one around and the counter is counting. So as I said, when the recorders were off, I'm going to read a short statement, get it in the record, and if I make any mistakes, you can correct it. And then I'm going to ask you permission to do this orally, and then I'm going to ask you questions. Today is July 21, 2022. My name is Philip Scarpino, Professor of History at Indiana University, Purdue University, Indianapolis, IPI. I also serve as Director of oral History for the rental Labias Center for Leadership Excellence at IPI. Today I have the privilege of interviewing Mr. Date at the headquarters of the Kepper Institute on Boulevard Place in Indianapolis. I will add that Mr. Hotep calls himself M, and I'll do that during this interview to keep things simple. This interview is sponsored by the Randall El. Center for Leadership Excellence. I would like to begin with a bit of background information on M. He was born and raised in Indianapolis, having attended Indianapolis Public School, 44 for elementary school, followed by Cathedral High School. He attended Purdue University for two years and IPY for three years, where he studied engineering. Is the executive director and co founder of the Kepper Institute along with Paul Fair and Panambra Ishi. The Kepper Institute, or KI, As, is an Indianapolis based grassroots nonprofit organization founded in the summer of 2003 as a way to provide tutoring for Paul Fair Son, and a few other high school aged African American young men. Ki became a nonprofit organization in 2004. It's grown from a small mentoring program to an organization that includes KI, new media, community controlled food initiative, and Scarabes Consulting. In general terms, KI focuses on youth and seeks solutions for community problems and challenges in the areas of education, environment, economy, and empowerment. And was also the founder in 1989, of a business known as Basement Enterprises, which specialized in T shirts and customer apparel. Basement Enterprises was a prequel to the Kipper Institute. We'll talk about Basement Enterprises and other aspects of M's fascinating life as we move through this interview. Before we begin, I'm going to ask you permission to do the same things you just agreed to do in writing, just in case the paperwork ever gets a lot. I'm asking you permission to record the interview. Prepare a verbatim transcript of this interview, deposit the interview on the verbatim transcript with the PUI, Special Collections and Archives and with the Tobias Center for Leadership Excellence, with the understanding that the directors of those organizations may make the interview and the transcript available to their patrons, which might include posting all or part of the audio recording and transcription to their respective websites. Are you okay with that? I'm good with that. Provide my permission. All right. A couple of clarifying people on Paul. All this is my interview. You have clarifying statements Because I must have told him something that Okay. Translate Well, let's make the clarifying statements. It was Paula Affairs, grandson. It was my son, Dia. All right. Who are the inspiration of the founding of Capper Institute and will touch my first name and ads is my last name. Okay. A combined. This name fell. I don't know how to sell AM BANA. Okay. Did I mispronounce that? I don't know. Okay. All right. So because this interview is sponsored by the Bias Center and are there focuses on leadership, I'm going to ask you start by asking you a few questions about leadership. So first question is, do you consider yourself to be a leader? Yes. Okay, and well, how would you characterize your style of leadership? Wow. In a skinny, I would say a servant leader. Okay. You know, the role of the leader is, is not so much leading, but providing opportunities to serve community and other than community and the collective interest of your community that you're serving, okay? Leaders are only successful if people are willing to follow them. Given all the years you've led in the general areas of racial, economic, social justice, how do you persuade people to follow you? Wow, I guess, well now you know there's a body of work, right? There's a history of sticking and stand. You say you're going to do something, you go out, you look up, you've done at this stage. If Ram says we're going to go over and do this, it's no longer a question of if we're going to read over and do it or not. I would say that's one, trying to model the behavior not always successfully, but model what it is that we talk about. I would say that's how Often folks support my leadership style. I would probably add a high level of empathy for community and people. Relationship building is primary, being a good deep listener, trying not to be overly judgmental, to be critical without passing judgment. I mean, those are all the characteristics I think over the years that have have people say yes. And of course, courage, you know, just the strength to no means, no, no don't mean yes. And being able, at least as it relates to the black community, to speak truth, to power on your own terms. So I think I'll stop there. Well, can you give an example of when you've spoken truth to power on your own terms? I know there are a lot, but just pick one so well, you know, I'll pick a personal example and I'm not sure if that example, gosh, there's so many of them. Most of the one that come to mind immediately interactions with, with the police. Back during my T shirt days, I was going to the bank once the credit union and the Friday and the bank line was packed, I'm in the drive through. And it was already a challenging, stressful day and I wanted to make a deposit through the window. And the bank manager told the clerk, no, he's got to come in the bank. I was behind on my car, my car, which I was I said, well, I can't come in today because I got to go and do something else. Just make the deposit and I'll come in Monday And they said, no, you have to come in the bank I said, well, no, just send my deposit out. They said no. So I parked. I left my vehicle running in the drive through and shut the whole drive through down, and went in the bank and raised the hell at the door. So with the manager and accused him of being, committing a crime, that led to five or six police officers. That then all of a sudden my rational mind stepped forward from the rage and said, this is Friday and you're going to spend the weekend in jail. I said, okay. So the officer asked me to leave, I left, and the bank manager realized at that point that he had made a mistake because it was his actions were illegal. And he followed me out trying to convince me to come back inside and where I said, no, I'm not coming inside. You've made your choice. Call the police on me. You're going to either give me my money back or you're going to deposit my account. I left and when I got got in on Monday, where was the money? It had been deposited in my account. That's an example of truth to power. That's just my own actions. But I'm sure those clerks who happen to all be black women realized that was not probably the first time that that particular behavior had been used by the management team. And that then led to, but I would probably guess the first time, they had somebody come in and told that manager, no, we're not doing your way. This is a legal act and we're going to do it my way. So the money ended up in my account, but at the end of the day, they won because a month later, my credit card was canceled. Just I don't know where, hey, we did it when we ran a credit report and your credit score doesn't warm, we continue to allow you to have this credit card with the bank. So that's a very personal example. Now, there are organizational examples, tons of those. I would probably say the ones that are speak most loudly to me in the present would be when we first decided to engage in community work outside of our own community on the truth, the prior piece and we were asked by a variety of stakeholders and our community to join at that time what was called Quality Life Initiative. In the North area Quality of life initiative. Yeah, of course, that's brand new for us. We only got involved because community folks, both businesses and actually some community folks that, hey, we need all to come and be involved in this space. Now, we had no idea why we need to be involved. But it became clear it was really about representing the voice that tend not to have voice in those spaces. We had a lot of experiences in that space. Paula get call. Just text me by mean, excuse me. We had a lot of interaction over the course of a year and a half in that space. That led to, I just told the story, actually ironic earlier today. One of these stories that led to having to negotiate for community interests above and beyond the interests of traditional voice of power. Nonprofit organization should resembing one of those. I think I'll stop there. So, as your career was developing, did you have anybody who mentored you? Kind of put you under their wing and No, not that she the pass. Well, you know, my my I would say my mother was my primary mentor, single parent from the south to this day. She's still at 90 giving me and directions. And if I don't follow them, she wants to talk to the elder round Miss Fair? I couldn't call it on the follow that's what my mother is doing, y, I would definitely say that she was and is one of the strongest voices, the good and bad leadership style. My resilience as a youngster. I grew up in the predominantly black neighborhood, Riverside area, and there was a Boy Scout troops involved in. I would say a lot of leadership came from being involved in that particular initiative. Boy Scout, all way to Eagle Scout and all the things that come out of that. You're an Eagle Scout. That's quite an accomplishment. You know, it runs my street Creek. So I don't go around and share that too, at, you know. Oh, yeah. Eagle Scout. But yeah. So but that was really tied to the leaders, Mr. Humbles, who ran the Boy Scouts group. We had quite a few children, and it actually took place a lot of it at school, 44. So Boy Scouts. And, you know, actually also as part of being a Boy Scout, I mentor a Cub Scout group oh, which was right there on the corner where we lived, one block on the, on the corner, and the Cub Scout group. And I would go over and mentor the Cub Scouts, which was a I would probably say, first real beginning journey into leadership tied to the relationship with Mr. Humbles, who the Boy Scouts other leaders. And that would be, the school teacher had a when I was there 44 in the seventh grade, I believe it was Mr. Shoemaker, young white guy, one of the few white teachers at the facility. And he ran shop and took a real interest in being a teacher in communities. So not did he teaches in the classroom. He would come hang out in our communities. And just a lot of mentoring tied to that particular craft and art form. In fact, I learned how to print T shirts in his class, and that's what led later to me being an entrepreuring t shirts. There are a number of other mentors in the community at that time. There were quite a few black entrepreneurs, businesses in the neighborhood. Mr. Brown lived up the street who ran, he repaired cars in his garage. And I would go down and, you know, fix my own car under his leadership and father with a got six, seven children, that was maybe every other weekend in his garage with myself and one or two other young men working on their cars. Some of the formative direct voices that I will call mentors. I would also say there are some intellectual mentors who did not live in this community with third world press. Who had an opportunity to meet at a conference we held at Black Student Union, IPI one here. And his name is what? Kekudiwl Press Two, Positive education. He gave a speech one day. It was so ironic because my friend Macao.

Plan for Succession

“I’ve more recently sort of formalized that relationship in some extent with people in various different settings... I’m working formally, acknowledged as a mentor, with a colleague who runs a leadership development consulting firm in the Netherlands... There have been others along the way although much less formally contracted in this way... they tell me that something I’ve said or done or am involved in doing has been instrumental and particularly significant for them.”

Description of the video:

Here we go. That was right. And we'll turn this one around and the counter is counting. So as I said, when the recorders were off, I'm going to read a short statement, get it in the record, and if I make any mistakes, you can correct it. And then I'm going to ask you permission to do this orally, and then I'm going to ask you questions. Today is July 21, 2022. My name is Philip Scarpino, Professor of History at Indiana University, Purdue University, Indianapolis, IPI. I also serve as Director of oral History for the rental Labias Center for Leadership Excellence at IPI. Today I have the privilege of interviewing Mr. Date at the headquarters of the Kepper Institute on Boulevard Place in Indianapolis. I will add that Mr. Hotep calls himself M, and I'll do that during this interview to keep things simple. This interview is sponsored by the Randall El. Center for Leadership Excellence. I would like to begin with a bit of background information on M. He was born and raised in Indianapolis, having attended Indianapolis Public School, 44 for elementary school, followed by Cathedral High School. He attended Purdue University for two years and IPY for three years, where he studied engineering. Is the executive director and co founder of the Kepper Institute along with Paul Fair and Panambra Ishi. The Kepper Institute, or KI, As, is an Indianapolis based grassroots nonprofit organization founded in the summer of 2003 as a way to provide tutoring for Paul Fair Son, and a few other high school aged African American young men. Ki became a nonprofit organization in 2004. It's grown from a small mentoring program to an organization that includes KI, new media, community controlled food initiative, and Scarabes Consulting. In general terms, KI focuses on youth and seeks solutions for community problems and challenges in the areas of education, environment, economy, and empowerment. And was also the founder in 1989, of a business known as Basement Enterprises, which specialized in T shirts and customer apparel. Basement Enterprises was a prequel to the Kipper Institute. We'll talk about Basement Enterprises and other aspects of M's fascinating life as we move through this interview. Before we begin, I'm going to ask you permission to do the same things you just agreed to do in writing, just in case the paperwork ever gets a lot. I'm asking you permission to record the interview. Prepare a verbatim transcript of this interview, deposit the interview on the verbatim transcript with the PUI, Special Collections and Archives and with the Tobias Center for Leadership Excellence, with the understanding that the directors of those organizations may make the interview and the transcript available to their patrons, which might include posting all or part of the audio recording and transcription to their respective websites. Are you okay with that? I'm good with that. Provide my permission. All right. A couple of clarifying people on Paul. All this is my interview. You have clarifying statements Because I must have told him something that Okay. Translate Well, let's make the clarifying statements. It was Paula Affairs, grandson. It was my son, Dia. All right. Who are the inspiration of the founding of Capper Institute and will touch my first name and ads is my last name. Okay. A combined. This name fell. I don't know how to sell AM BANA. Okay. Did I mispronounce that? I don't know. Okay. All right. So because this interview is sponsored by the Bias Center and are there focuses on leadership, I'm going to ask you start by asking you a few questions about leadership. So first question is, do you consider yourself to be a leader? Yes. Okay, and well, how would you characterize your style of leadership? Wow. In a skinny, I would say a servant leader. Okay. You know, the role of the leader is, is not so much leading, but providing opportunities to serve community and other than community and the collective interest of your community that you're serving, okay? Leaders are only successful if people are willing to follow them. Given all the years you've led in the general areas of racial, economic, social justice, how do you persuade people to follow you? Wow, I guess, well now you know there's a body of work, right? There's a history of sticking and stand. You say you're going to do something, you go out, you look up, you've done at this stage. If Ram says we're going to go over and do this, it's no longer a question of if we're going to read over and do it or not. I would say that's one, trying to model the behavior not always successfully, but model what it is that we talk about. I would say that's how Often folks support my leadership style. I would probably add a high level of empathy for community and people. Relationship building is primary, being a good deep listener, trying not to be overly judgmental, to be critical without passing judgment. I mean, those are all the characteristics I think over the years that have have people say yes. And of course, courage, you know, just the strength to no means, no, no don't mean yes. And being able, at least as it relates to the black community, to speak truth, to power on your own terms. So I think I'll stop there. Well, can you give an example of when you've spoken truth to power on your own terms? I know there are a lot, but just pick one so well, you know, I'll pick a personal example and I'm not sure if that example, gosh, there's so many of them. Most of the one that come to mind immediately interactions with, with the police. Back during my T shirt days, I was going to the bank once the credit union and the Friday and the bank line was packed, I'm in the drive through. And it was already a challenging, stressful day and I wanted to make a deposit through the window. And the bank manager told the clerk, no, he's got to come in the bank. I was behind on my car, my car, which I was I said, well, I can't come in today because I got to go and do something else. Just make the deposit and I'll come in Monday And they said, no, you have to come in the bank I said, well, no, just send my deposit out. They said no. So I parked. I left my vehicle running in the drive through and shut the whole drive through down, and went in the bank and raised the hell at the door. So with the manager and accused him of being, committing a crime, that led to five or six police officers. That then all of a sudden my rational mind stepped forward from the rage and said, this is Friday and you're going to spend the weekend in jail. I said, okay. So the officer asked me to leave, I left, and the bank manager realized at that point that he had made a mistake because it was his actions were illegal. And he followed me out trying to convince me to come back inside and where I said, no, I'm not coming inside. You've made your choice. Call the police on me. You're going to either give me my money back or you're going to deposit my account. I left and when I got got in on Monday, where was the money? It had been deposited in my account. That's an example of truth to power. That's just my own actions. But I'm sure those clerks who happen to all be black women realized that was not probably the first time that that particular behavior had been used by the management team. And that then led to, but I would probably guess the first time, they had somebody come in and told that manager, no, we're not doing your way. This is a legal act and we're going to do it my way. So the money ended up in my account, but at the end of the day, they won because a month later, my credit card was canceled. Just I don't know where, hey, we did it when we ran a credit report and your credit score doesn't warm, we continue to allow you to have this credit card with the bank. So that's a very personal example. Now, there are organizational examples, tons of those. I would probably say the ones that are speak most loudly to me in the present would be when we first decided to engage in community work outside of our own community on the truth, the prior piece and we were asked by a variety of stakeholders and our community to join at that time what was called Quality Life Initiative. In the North area Quality of life initiative. Yeah, of course, that's brand new for us. We only got involved because community folks, both businesses and actually some community folks that, hey, we need all to come and be involved in this space. Now, we had no idea why we need to be involved. But it became clear it was really about representing the voice that tend not to have voice in those spaces. We had a lot of experiences in that space. Paula get call. Just text me by mean, excuse me. We had a lot of interaction over the course of a year and a half in that space. That led to, I just told the story, actually ironic earlier today. One of these stories that led to having to negotiate for community interests above and beyond the interests of traditional voice of power. Nonprofit organization should resembing one of those. I think I'll stop there. So, as your career was developing, did you have anybody who mentored you? Kind of put you under their wing and No, not that she the pass. Well, you know, my my I would say my mother was my primary mentor, single parent from the south to this day. She's still at 90 giving me and directions. And if I don't follow them, she wants to talk to the elder round Miss Fair? I couldn't call it on the follow that's what my mother is doing, y, I would definitely say that she was and is one of the strongest voices, the good and bad leadership style. My resilience as a youngster. I grew up in the predominantly black neighborhood, Riverside area, and there was a Boy Scout troops involved in. I would say a lot of leadership came from being involved in that particular initiative. Boy Scout, all way to Eagle Scout and all the things that come out of that. You're an Eagle Scout. That's quite an accomplishment. You know, it runs my street Creek. So I don't go around and share that too, at, you know. Oh, yeah. Eagle Scout. But yeah. So but that was really tied to the leaders, Mr. Humbles, who ran the Boy Scouts group. We had quite a few children, and it actually took place a lot of it at school, 44. So Boy Scouts. And, you know, actually also as part of being a Boy Scout, I mentor a Cub Scout group oh, which was right there on the corner where we lived, one block on the, on the corner, and the Cub Scout group. And I would go over and mentor the Cub Scouts, which was a I would probably say, first real beginning journey into leadership tied to the relationship with Mr. Humbles, who the Boy Scouts other leaders. And that would be, the school teacher had a when I was there 44 in the seventh grade, I believe it was Mr. Shoemaker, young white guy, one of the few white teachers at the facility. And he ran shop and took a real interest in being a teacher in communities. So not did he teaches in the classroom. He would come hang out in our communities. And just a lot of mentoring tied to that particular craft and art form. In fact, I learned how to print T shirts in his class, and that's what led later to me being an entrepreuring t shirts. There are a number of other mentors in the community at that time. There were quite a few black entrepreneurs, businesses in the neighborhood. Mr. Brown lived up the street who ran, he repaired cars in his garage. And I would go down and, you know, fix my own car under his leadership and father with a got six, seven children, that was maybe every other weekend in his garage with myself and one or two other young men working on their cars. Some of the formative direct voices that I will call mentors. I would also say there are some intellectual mentors who did not live in this community with third world press. Who had an opportunity to meet at a conference we held at Black Student Union, IPI one here. And his name is what? Kekudiwl Press Two, Positive education. He gave a speech one day. It was so ironic because my friend Macao.

Storytelling

“My childhood hero was Admiral Nelson... thinking about who were your childhood heroes, imaginary or real, is helpful to understand what you might be searching for later on. Those things don’t leave us even if we become more sophisticated, critical, and so on.”

Description of the video:

Here we go. That was right. And we'll turn this one around and the counter is counting. So as I said, when the recorders were off, I'm going to read a short statement, get it in the record, and if I make any mistakes, you can correct it. And then I'm going to ask you permission to do this orally, and then I'm going to ask you questions. Today is July 21, 2022. My name is Philip Scarpino, Professor of History at Indiana University, Purdue University, Indianapolis, IPI. I also serve as Director of oral History for the rental Labias Center for Leadership Excellence at IPI. Today I have the privilege of interviewing Mr. Date at the headquarters of the Kepper Institute on Boulevard Place in Indianapolis. I will add that Mr. Hotep calls himself M, and I'll do that during this interview to keep things simple. This interview is sponsored by the Randall El. Center for Leadership Excellence. I would like to begin with a bit of background information on M. He was born and raised in Indianapolis, having attended Indianapolis Public School, 44 for elementary school, followed by Cathedral High School. He attended Purdue University for two years and IPY for three years, where he studied engineering. Is the executive director and co founder of the Kepper Institute along with Paul Fair and Panambra Ishi. The Kepper Institute, or KI, As, is an Indianapolis based grassroots nonprofit organization founded in the summer of 2003 as a way to provide tutoring for Paul Fair Son, and a few other high school aged African American young men. Ki became a nonprofit organization in 2004. It's grown from a small mentoring program to an organization that includes KI, new media, community controlled food initiative, and Scarabes Consulting. In general terms, KI focuses on youth and seeks solutions for community problems and challenges in the areas of education, environment, economy, and empowerment. And was also the founder in 1989, of a business known as Basement Enterprises, which specialized in T shirts and customer apparel. Basement Enterprises was a prequel to the Kipper Institute. We'll talk about Basement Enterprises and other aspects of M's fascinating life as we move through this interview. Before we begin, I'm going to ask you permission to do the same things you just agreed to do in writing, just in case the paperwork ever gets a lot. I'm asking you permission to record the interview. Prepare a verbatim transcript of this interview, deposit the interview on the verbatim transcript with the PUI, Special Collections and Archives and with the Tobias Center for Leadership Excellence, with the understanding that the directors of those organizations may make the interview and the transcript available to their patrons, which might include posting all or part of the audio recording and transcription to their respective websites. Are you okay with that? I'm good with that. Provide my permission. All right. A couple of clarifying people on Paul. All this is my interview. You have clarifying statements Because I must have told him something that Okay. Translate Well, let's make the clarifying statements. It was Paula Affairs, grandson. It was my son, Dia. All right. Who are the inspiration of the founding of Capper Institute and will touch my first name and ads is my last name. Okay. A combined. This name fell. I don't know how to sell AM BANA. Okay. Did I mispronounce that? I don't know. Okay. All right. So because this interview is sponsored by the Bias Center and are there focuses on leadership, I'm going to ask you start by asking you a few questions about leadership. So first question is, do you consider yourself to be a leader? Yes. Okay, and well, how would you characterize your style of leadership? Wow. In a skinny, I would say a servant leader. Okay. You know, the role of the leader is, is not so much leading, but providing opportunities to serve community and other than community and the collective interest of your community that you're serving, okay? Leaders are only successful if people are willing to follow them. Given all the years you've led in the general areas of racial, economic, social justice, how do you persuade people to follow you? Wow, I guess, well now you know there's a body of work, right? There's a history of sticking and stand. You say you're going to do something, you go out, you look up, you've done at this stage. If Ram says we're going to go over and do this, it's no longer a question of if we're going to read over and do it or not. I would say that's one, trying to model the behavior not always successfully, but model what it is that we talk about. I would say that's how Often folks support my leadership style. I would probably add a high level of empathy for community and people. Relationship building is primary, being a good deep listener, trying not to be overly judgmental, to be critical without passing judgment. I mean, those are all the characteristics I think over the years that have have people say yes. And of course, courage, you know, just the strength to no means, no, no don't mean yes. And being able, at least as it relates to the black community, to speak truth, to power on your own terms. So I think I'll stop there. Well, can you give an example of when you've spoken truth to power on your own terms? I know there are a lot, but just pick one so well, you know, I'll pick a personal example and I'm not sure if that example, gosh, there's so many of them. Most of the one that come to mind immediately interactions with, with the police. Back during my T shirt days, I was going to the bank once the credit union and the Friday and the bank line was packed, I'm in the drive through. And it was already a challenging, stressful day and I wanted to make a deposit through the window. And the bank manager told the clerk, no, he's got to come in the bank. I was behind on my car, my car, which I was I said, well, I can't come in today because I got to go and do something else. Just make the deposit and I'll come in Monday And they said, no, you have to come in the bank I said, well, no, just send my deposit out. They said no. So I parked. I left my vehicle running in the drive through and shut the whole drive through down, and went in the bank and raised the hell at the door. So with the manager and accused him of being, committing a crime, that led to five or six police officers. That then all of a sudden my rational mind stepped forward from the rage and said, this is Friday and you're going to spend the weekend in jail. I said, okay. So the officer asked me to leave, I left, and the bank manager realized at that point that he had made a mistake because it was his actions were illegal. And he followed me out trying to convince me to come back inside and where I said, no, I'm not coming inside. You've made your choice. Call the police on me. You're going to either give me my money back or you're going to deposit my account. I left and when I got got in on Monday, where was the money? It had been deposited in my account. That's an example of truth to power. That's just my own actions. But I'm sure those clerks who happen to all be black women realized that was not probably the first time that that particular behavior had been used by the management team. And that then led to, but I would probably guess the first time, they had somebody come in and told that manager, no, we're not doing your way. This is a legal act and we're going to do it my way. So the money ended up in my account, but at the end of the day, they won because a month later, my credit card was canceled. Just I don't know where, hey, we did it when we ran a credit report and your credit score doesn't warm, we continue to allow you to have this credit card with the bank. So that's a very personal example. Now, there are organizational examples, tons of those. I would probably say the ones that are speak most loudly to me in the present would be when we first decided to engage in community work outside of our own community on the truth, the prior piece and we were asked by a variety of stakeholders and our community to join at that time what was called Quality Life Initiative. In the North area Quality of life initiative. Yeah, of course, that's brand new for us. We only got involved because community folks, both businesses and actually some community folks that, hey, we need all to come and be involved in this space. Now, we had no idea why we need to be involved. But it became clear it was really about representing the voice that tend not to have voice in those spaces. We had a lot of experiences in that space. Paula get call. Just text me by mean, excuse me. We had a lot of interaction over the course of a year and a half in that space. That led to, I just told the story, actually ironic earlier today. One of these stories that led to having to negotiate for community interests above and beyond the interests of traditional voice of power. Nonprofit organization should resembing one of those. I think I'll stop there. So, as your career was developing, did you have anybody who mentored you? Kind of put you under their wing and No, not that she the pass. Well, you know, my my I would say my mother was my primary mentor, single parent from the south to this day. She's still at 90 giving me and directions. And if I don't follow them, she wants to talk to the elder round Miss Fair? I couldn't call it on the follow that's what my mother is doing, y, I would definitely say that she was and is one of the strongest voices, the good and bad leadership style. My resilience as a youngster. I grew up in the predominantly black neighborhood, Riverside area, and there was a Boy Scout troops involved in. I would say a lot of leadership came from being involved in that particular initiative. Boy Scout, all way to Eagle Scout and all the things that come out of that. You're an Eagle Scout. That's quite an accomplishment. You know, it runs my street Creek. So I don't go around and share that too, at, you know. Oh, yeah. Eagle Scout. But yeah. So but that was really tied to the leaders, Mr. Humbles, who ran the Boy Scouts group. We had quite a few children, and it actually took place a lot of it at school, 44. So Boy Scouts. And, you know, actually also as part of being a Boy Scout, I mentor a Cub Scout group oh, which was right there on the corner where we lived, one block on the, on the corner, and the Cub Scout group. And I would go over and mentor the Cub Scouts, which was a I would probably say, first real beginning journey into leadership tied to the relationship with Mr. Humbles, who the Boy Scouts other leaders. And that would be, the school teacher had a when I was there 44 in the seventh grade, I believe it was Mr. Shoemaker, young white guy, one of the few white teachers at the facility. And he ran shop and took a real interest in being a teacher in communities. So not did he teaches in the classroom. He would come hang out in our communities. And just a lot of mentoring tied to that particular craft and art form. In fact, I learned how to print T shirts in his class, and that's what led later to me being an entrepreuring t shirts. There are a number of other mentors in the community at that time. There were quite a few black entrepreneurs, businesses in the neighborhood. Mr. Brown lived up the street who ran, he repaired cars in his garage. And I would go down and, you know, fix my own car under his leadership and father with a got six, seven children, that was maybe every other weekend in his garage with myself and one or two other young men working on their cars. Some of the formative direct voices that I will call mentors. I would also say there are some intellectual mentors who did not live in this community with third world press. Who had an opportunity to meet at a conference we held at Black Student Union, IPI one here. And his name is what? Kekudiwl Press Two, Positive education. He gave a speech one day. It was so ironic because my friend Macao.

Lead Authentically

“So that sense of finding one’s self and finding the ability to mobilize one’s own authority is central to my understanding of leadership... reminding people [they] have the power to choose.”

Description of the video:

Here we go. That was right. And we'll turn this one around and the counter is counting. So as I said, when the recorders were off, I'm going to read a short statement, get it in the record, and if I make any mistakes, you can correct it. And then I'm going to ask you permission to do this orally, and then I'm going to ask you questions. Today is July 21, 2022. My name is Philip Scarpino, Professor of History at Indiana University, Purdue University, Indianapolis, IPI. I also serve as Director of oral History for the rental Labias Center for Leadership Excellence at IPI. Today I have the privilege of interviewing Mr. Date at the headquarters of the Kepper Institute on Boulevard Place in Indianapolis. I will add that Mr. Hotep calls himself M, and I'll do that during this interview to keep things simple. This interview is sponsored by the Randall El. Center for Leadership Excellence. I would like to begin with a bit of background information on M. He was born and raised in Indianapolis, having attended Indianapolis Public School, 44 for elementary school, followed by Cathedral High School. He attended Purdue University for two years and IPY for three years, where he studied engineering. Is the executive director and co founder of the Kepper Institute along with Paul Fair and Panambra Ishi. The Kepper Institute, or KI, As, is an Indianapolis based grassroots nonprofit organization founded in the summer of 2003 as a way to provide tutoring for Paul Fair Son, and a few other high school aged African American young men. Ki became a nonprofit organization in 2004. It's grown from a small mentoring program to an organization that includes KI, new media, community controlled food initiative, and Scarabes Consulting. In general terms, KI focuses on youth and seeks solutions for community problems and challenges in the areas of education, environment, economy, and empowerment. And was also the founder in 1989, of a business known as Basement Enterprises, which specialized in T shirts and customer apparel. Basement Enterprises was a prequel to the Kipper Institute. We'll talk about Basement Enterprises and other aspects of M's fascinating life as we move through this interview. Before we begin, I'm going to ask you permission to do the same things you just agreed to do in writing, just in case the paperwork ever gets a lot. I'm asking you permission to record the interview. Prepare a verbatim transcript of this interview, deposit the interview on the verbatim transcript with the PUI, Special Collections and Archives and with the Tobias Center for Leadership Excellence, with the understanding that the directors of those organizations may make the interview and the transcript available to their patrons, which might include posting all or part of the audio recording and transcription to their respective websites. Are you okay with that? I'm good with that. Provide my permission. All right. A couple of clarifying people on Paul. All this is my interview. You have clarifying statements Because I must have told him something that Okay. Translate Well, let's make the clarifying statements. It was Paula Affairs, grandson. It was my son, Dia. All right. Who are the inspiration of the founding of Capper Institute and will touch my first name and ads is my last name. Okay. A combined. This name fell. I don't know how to sell AM BANA. Okay. Did I mispronounce that? I don't know. Okay. All right. So because this interview is sponsored by the Bias Center and are there focuses on leadership, I'm going to ask you start by asking you a few questions about leadership. So first question is, do you consider yourself to be a leader? Yes. Okay, and well, how would you characterize your style of leadership? Wow. In a skinny, I would say a servant leader. Okay. You know, the role of the leader is, is not so much leading, but providing opportunities to serve community and other than community and the collective interest of your community that you're serving, okay? Leaders are only successful if people are willing to follow them. Given all the years you've led in the general areas of racial, economic, social justice, how do you persuade people to follow you? Wow, I guess, well now you know there's a body of work, right? There's a history of sticking and stand. You say you're going to do something, you go out, you look up, you've done at this stage. If Ram says we're going to go over and do this, it's no longer a question of if we're going to read over and do it or not. I would say that's one, trying to model the behavior not always successfully, but model what it is that we talk about. I would say that's how Often folks support my leadership style. I would probably add a high level of empathy for community and people. Relationship building is primary, being a good deep listener, trying not to be overly judgmental, to be critical without passing judgment. I mean, those are all the characteristics I think over the years that have have people say yes. And of course, courage, you know, just the strength to no means, no, no don't mean yes. And being able, at least as it relates to the black community, to speak truth, to power on your own terms. So I think I'll stop there. Well, can you give an example of when you've spoken truth to power on your own terms? I know there are a lot, but just pick one so well, you know, I'll pick a personal example and I'm not sure if that example, gosh, there's so many of them. Most of the one that come to mind immediately interactions with, with the police. Back during my T shirt days, I was going to the bank once the credit union and the Friday and the bank line was packed, I'm in the drive through. And it was already a challenging, stressful day and I wanted to make a deposit through the window. And the bank manager told the clerk, no, he's got to come in the bank. I was behind on my car, my car, which I was I said, well, I can't come in today because I got to go and do something else. Just make the deposit and I'll come in Monday And they said, no, you have to come in the bank I said, well, no, just send my deposit out. They said no. So I parked. I left my vehicle running in the drive through and shut the whole drive through down, and went in the bank and raised the hell at the door. So with the manager and accused him of being, committing a crime, that led to five or six police officers. That then all of a sudden my rational mind stepped forward from the rage and said, this is Friday and you're going to spend the weekend in jail. I said, okay. So the officer asked me to leave, I left, and the bank manager realized at that point that he had made a mistake because it was his actions were illegal. And he followed me out trying to convince me to come back inside and where I said, no, I'm not coming inside. You've made your choice. Call the police on me. You're going to either give me my money back or you're going to deposit my account. I left and when I got got in on Monday, where was the money? It had been deposited in my account. That's an example of truth to power. That's just my own actions. But I'm sure those clerks who happen to all be black women realized that was not probably the first time that that particular behavior had been used by the management team. And that then led to, but I would probably guess the first time, they had somebody come in and told that manager, no, we're not doing your way. This is a legal act and we're going to do it my way. So the money ended up in my account, but at the end of the day, they won because a month later, my credit card was canceled. Just I don't know where, hey, we did it when we ran a credit report and your credit score doesn't warm, we continue to allow you to have this credit card with the bank. So that's a very personal example. Now, there are organizational examples, tons of those. I would probably say the ones that are speak most loudly to me in the present would be when we first decided to engage in community work outside of our own community on the truth, the prior piece and we were asked by a variety of stakeholders and our community to join at that time what was called Quality Life Initiative. In the North area Quality of life initiative. Yeah, of course, that's brand new for us. We only got involved because community folks, both businesses and actually some community folks that, hey, we need all to come and be involved in this space. Now, we had no idea why we need to be involved. But it became clear it was really about representing the voice that tend not to have voice in those spaces. We had a lot of experiences in that space. Paula get call. Just text me by mean, excuse me. We had a lot of interaction over the course of a year and a half in that space. That led to, I just told the story, actually ironic earlier today. One of these stories that led to having to negotiate for community interests above and beyond the interests of traditional voice of power. Nonprofit organization should resembing one of those. I think I'll stop there. So, as your career was developing, did you have anybody who mentored you? Kind of put you under their wing and No, not that she the pass. Well, you know, my my I would say my mother was my primary mentor, single parent from the south to this day. She's still at 90 giving me and directions. And if I don't follow them, she wants to talk to the elder round Miss Fair? I couldn't call it on the follow that's what my mother is doing, y, I would definitely say that she was and is one of the strongest voices, the good and bad leadership style. My resilience as a youngster. I grew up in the predominantly black neighborhood, Riverside area, and there was a Boy Scout troops involved in. I would say a lot of leadership came from being involved in that particular initiative. Boy Scout, all way to Eagle Scout and all the things that come out of that. You're an Eagle Scout. That's quite an accomplishment. You know, it runs my street Creek. So I don't go around and share that too, at, you know. Oh, yeah. Eagle Scout. But yeah. So but that was really tied to the leaders, Mr. Humbles, who ran the Boy Scouts group. We had quite a few children, and it actually took place a lot of it at school, 44. So Boy Scouts. And, you know, actually also as part of being a Boy Scout, I mentor a Cub Scout group oh, which was right there on the corner where we lived, one block on the, on the corner, and the Cub Scout group. And I would go over and mentor the Cub Scouts, which was a I would probably say, first real beginning journey into leadership tied to the relationship with Mr. Humbles, who the Boy Scouts other leaders. And that would be, the school teacher had a when I was there 44 in the seventh grade, I believe it was Mr. Shoemaker, young white guy, one of the few white teachers at the facility. And he ran shop and took a real interest in being a teacher in communities. So not did he teaches in the classroom. He would come hang out in our communities. And just a lot of mentoring tied to that particular craft and art form. In fact, I learned how to print T shirts in his class, and that's what led later to me being an entrepreuring t shirts. There are a number of other mentors in the community at that time. There were quite a few black entrepreneurs, businesses in the neighborhood. Mr. Brown lived up the street who ran, he repaired cars in his garage. And I would go down and, you know, fix my own car under his leadership and father with a got six, seven children, that was maybe every other weekend in his garage with myself and one or two other young men working on their cars. Some of the formative direct voices that I will call mentors. I would also say there are some intellectual mentors who did not live in this community with third world press. Who had an opportunity to meet at a conference we held at Black Student Union, IPI one here. And his name is what? Kekudiwl Press Two, Positive education. He gave a speech one day. It was so ironic because my friend Macao.

Navigate Change

“I'm very skeptical... that leaders make change, managers just keep things going... it’s mostly about continuity, enabling people to keep at it... in spite of all of that, how do we keep going, and keep going in a way that is civil.”

Description of the video:

Here we go. That was right. And we'll turn this one around and the counter is counting. So as I said, when the recorders were off, I'm going to read a short statement, get it in the record, and if I make any mistakes, you can correct it. And then I'm going to ask you permission to do this orally, and then I'm going to ask you questions. Today is July 21, 2022. My name is Philip Scarpino, Professor of History at Indiana University, Purdue University, Indianapolis, IPI. I also serve as Director of oral History for the rental Labias Center for Leadership Excellence at IPI. Today I have the privilege of interviewing Mr. Date at the headquarters of the Kepper Institute on Boulevard Place in Indianapolis. I will add that Mr. Hotep calls himself M, and I'll do that during this interview to keep things simple. This interview is sponsored by the Randall El. Center for Leadership Excellence. I would like to begin with a bit of background information on M. He was born and raised in Indianapolis, having attended Indianapolis Public School, 44 for elementary school, followed by Cathedral High School. He attended Purdue University for two years and IPY for three years, where he studied engineering. Is the executive director and co founder of the Kepper Institute along with Paul Fair and Panambra Ishi. The Kepper Institute, or KI, As, is an Indianapolis based grassroots nonprofit organization founded in the summer of 2003 as a way to provide tutoring for Paul Fair Son, and a few other high school aged African American young men. Ki became a nonprofit organization in 2004. It's grown from a small mentoring program to an organization that includes KI, new media, community controlled food initiative, and Scarabes Consulting. In general terms, KI focuses on youth and seeks solutions for community problems and challenges in the areas of education, environment, economy, and empowerment. And was also the founder in 1989, of a business known as Basement Enterprises, which specialized in T shirts and customer apparel. Basement Enterprises was a prequel to the Kipper Institute. We'll talk about Basement Enterprises and other aspects of M's fascinating life as we move through this interview. Before we begin, I'm going to ask you permission to do the same things you just agreed to do in writing, just in case the paperwork ever gets a lot. I'm asking you permission to record the interview. Prepare a verbatim transcript of this interview, deposit the interview on the verbatim transcript with the PUI, Special Collections and Archives and with the Tobias Center for Leadership Excellence, with the understanding that the directors of those organizations may make the interview and the transcript available to their patrons, which might include posting all or part of the audio recording and transcription to their respective websites. Are you okay with that? I'm good with that. Provide my permission. All right. A couple of clarifying people on Paul. All this is my interview. You have clarifying statements Because I must have told him something that Okay. Translate Well, let's make the clarifying statements. It was Paula Affairs, grandson. It was my son, Dia. All right. Who are the inspiration of the founding of Capper Institute and will touch my first name and ads is my last name. Okay. A combined. This name fell. I don't know how to sell AM BANA. Okay. Did I mispronounce that? I don't know. Okay. All right. So because this interview is sponsored by the Bias Center and are there focuses on leadership, I'm going to ask you start by asking you a few questions about leadership. So first question is, do you consider yourself to be a leader? Yes. Okay, and well, how would you characterize your style of leadership? Wow. In a skinny, I would say a servant leader. Okay. You know, the role of the leader is, is not so much leading, but providing opportunities to serve community and other than community and the collective interest of your community that you're serving, okay? Leaders are only successful if people are willing to follow them. Given all the years you've led in the general areas of racial, economic, social justice, how do you persuade people to follow you? Wow, I guess, well now you know there's a body of work, right? There's a history of sticking and stand. You say you're going to do something, you go out, you look up, you've done at this stage. If Ram says we're going to go over and do this, it's no longer a question of if we're going to read over and do it or not. I would say that's one, trying to model the behavior not always successfully, but model what it is that we talk about. I would say that's how Often folks support my leadership style. I would probably add a high level of empathy for community and people. Relationship building is primary, being a good deep listener, trying not to be overly judgmental, to be critical without passing judgment. I mean, those are all the characteristics I think over the years that have have people say yes. And of course, courage, you know, just the strength to no means, no, no don't mean yes. And being able, at least as it relates to the black community, to speak truth, to power on your own terms. So I think I'll stop there. Well, can you give an example of when you've spoken truth to power on your own terms? I know there are a lot, but just pick one so well, you know, I'll pick a personal example and I'm not sure if that example, gosh, there's so many of them. Most of the one that come to mind immediately interactions with, with the police. Back during my T shirt days, I was going to the bank once the credit union and the Friday and the bank line was packed, I'm in the drive through. And it was already a challenging, stressful day and I wanted to make a deposit through the window. And the bank manager told the clerk, no, he's got to come in the bank. I was behind on my car, my car, which I was I said, well, I can't come in today because I got to go and do something else. Just make the deposit and I'll come in Monday And they said, no, you have to come in the bank I said, well, no, just send my deposit out. They said no. So I parked. I left my vehicle running in the drive through and shut the whole drive through down, and went in the bank and raised the hell at the door. So with the manager and accused him of being, committing a crime, that led to five or six police officers. That then all of a sudden my rational mind stepped forward from the rage and said, this is Friday and you're going to spend the weekend in jail. I said, okay. So the officer asked me to leave, I left, and the bank manager realized at that point that he had made a mistake because it was his actions were illegal. And he followed me out trying to convince me to come back inside and where I said, no, I'm not coming inside. You've made your choice. Call the police on me. You're going to either give me my money back or you're going to deposit my account. I left and when I got got in on Monday, where was the money? It had been deposited in my account. That's an example of truth to power. That's just my own actions. But I'm sure those clerks who happen to all be black women realized that was not probably the first time that that particular behavior had been used by the management team. And that then led to, but I would probably guess the first time, they had somebody come in and told that manager, no, we're not doing your way. This is a legal act and we're going to do it my way. So the money ended up in my account, but at the end of the day, they won because a month later, my credit card was canceled. Just I don't know where, hey, we did it when we ran a credit report and your credit score doesn't warm, we continue to allow you to have this credit card with the bank. So that's a very personal example. Now, there are organizational examples, tons of those. I would probably say the ones that are speak most loudly to me in the present would be when we first decided to engage in community work outside of our own community on the truth, the prior piece and we were asked by a variety of stakeholders and our community to join at that time what was called Quality Life Initiative. In the North area Quality of life initiative. Yeah, of course, that's brand new for us. We only got involved because community folks, both businesses and actually some community folks that, hey, we need all to come and be involved in this space. Now, we had no idea why we need to be involved. But it became clear it was really about representing the voice that tend not to have voice in those spaces. We had a lot of experiences in that space. Paula get call. Just text me by mean, excuse me. We had a lot of interaction over the course of a year and a half in that space. That led to, I just told the story, actually ironic earlier today. One of these stories that led to having to negotiate for community interests above and beyond the interests of traditional voice of power. Nonprofit organization should resembing one of those. I think I'll stop there. So, as your career was developing, did you have anybody who mentored you? Kind of put you under their wing and No, not that she the pass. Well, you know, my my I would say my mother was my primary mentor, single parent from the south to this day. She's still at 90 giving me and directions. And if I don't follow them, she wants to talk to the elder round Miss Fair? I couldn't call it on the follow that's what my mother is doing, y, I would definitely say that she was and is one of the strongest voices, the good and bad leadership style. My resilience as a youngster. I grew up in the predominantly black neighborhood, Riverside area, and there was a Boy Scout troops involved in. I would say a lot of leadership came from being involved in that particular initiative. Boy Scout, all way to Eagle Scout and all the things that come out of that. You're an Eagle Scout. That's quite an accomplishment. You know, it runs my street Creek. So I don't go around and share that too, at, you know. Oh, yeah. Eagle Scout. But yeah. So but that was really tied to the leaders, Mr. Humbles, who ran the Boy Scouts group. We had quite a few children, and it actually took place a lot of it at school, 44. So Boy Scouts. And, you know, actually also as part of being a Boy Scout, I mentor a Cub Scout group oh, which was right there on the corner where we lived, one block on the, on the corner, and the Cub Scout group. And I would go over and mentor the Cub Scouts, which was a I would probably say, first real beginning journey into leadership tied to the relationship with Mr. Humbles, who the Boy Scouts other leaders. And that would be, the school teacher had a when I was there 44 in the seventh grade, I believe it was Mr. Shoemaker, young white guy, one of the few white teachers at the facility. And he ran shop and took a real interest in being a teacher in communities. So not did he teaches in the classroom. He would come hang out in our communities. And just a lot of mentoring tied to that particular craft and art form. In fact, I learned how to print T shirts in his class, and that's what led later to me being an entrepreuring t shirts. There are a number of other mentors in the community at that time. There were quite a few black entrepreneurs, businesses in the neighborhood. Mr. Brown lived up the street who ran, he repaired cars in his garage. And I would go down and, you know, fix my own car under his leadership and father with a got six, seven children, that was maybe every other weekend in his garage with myself and one or two other young men working on their cars. Some of the formative direct voices that I will call mentors. I would also say there are some intellectual mentors who did not live in this community with third world press. Who had an opportunity to meet at a conference we held at Black Student Union, IPI one here. And his name is what? Kekudiwl Press Two, Positive education. He gave a speech one day. It was so ironic because my friend Macao.

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