Dennis Bland

Scarpino: As I promised when the recorder was off, I’m going to read a statement here.

And I’m doing this with you here so that a) you’ll know what I said, and b) you
can correct if I made any mistakes. Today is Friday, October 8, 2021. My
name is Philip Scarpino, Professor of History at Indiana University/Purdue
University, Indianapolis (IUPUI); and Director of Oral History for the Tobias
Center for Leadership Excellence also at IUPUI. I’m interviewing Mr. Dennis
Bland at the headquarters of the Center for Leadership Development located
at 2425 Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Street, Indianapolis. This is the first
recording session with Dennis Bland. This interview is sponsored and
supported by the Tobias Center for Leadership Excellence on the campus of
IUPUI.

Dennis Bland was born and raised in Indianapolis. When we conducted the
pre-interview on August 16, 2021, he mentioned that Judge S. Hugh Dillon’s
bussing order issued in 1971 was synonymous with his youth. I will, therefore,
note that for elementary school he attended three Indianapolis Public Schools,
including Riverside School #44, Henry P. Coburn #66, Charles Warren
Fairbanks #105. For Junior High School he attended T.C. Steele #98, followed
by Broad Ripple High School, from which he graduated in 1983. He graduated
from DePauw University, Greencastle, Indiana, in 1987 with a major in
business. He earned his law degree from the Indiana University McKinney
School of Law in Indianapolis in 1992. He worked as a substitute teacher
while studying for the Bar, which he passed in 1993. In 1994, he accepted
employment with the Indiana State Department of Insurance, working in
medical malpractice.

Dennis Bland remained with the State until 2000, when he left to accept the
position of President of the Center Leadership Development. He replaced the
long-serving S. Henry Bundles, Jr.

Dennis Bland inspires people. He is an accomplished motivational speaker,
and a strong advocate of creating opportunity for young people, especially
African American youth. He has also proven to be a most effective fund
raiser.

Dennis Bland has been a life-long member of Christ Temple Apostolic Faith
Assembly, located at 430 West Fall Creek Parkway, North Drive, Indianapolis.
As part of my preparation for this interview, I spoke on the phone with several
individuals recommended by Dennis Bland as people who could help me
understand his career, his views on leadership, and his role as a leader. They
were all helpful and had high praise for the Mr. Bland and the Center for
Leadership Development.

These individuals included:

Jeffrey Harrison, President and CEO, Citizens Energy Group, Indianapolis
Mr. Harrison is a Member of the Board of Directors of the Center for
Leadership Development.

Thomas A. King, Chair of the Board, Center for Leadership Development,
retired President and CEO of the Indiana State Museum and Historic Sites. I
spoke to him while he was on a family trip in Idaho.

Teresa Lubbers, Indiana Commissioner for Higher Education, Indianapolis.

Christopher J. Murphy III, Chairman and CEO, 1st Source Bank, South Bend
Each of these individuals expressed high praise for Dennis Bland and the
work he has done while President of The Center for Leadership Development.
Christopher Murphy, said Dennis Bland is “as good as they come.” “When he
speaks everyone listens.”

Each of these individuals suggested questions I should ask Mr. Bland. I will
be working in some of those questions into the interview.

With all that said, I want to ask your permission to do the following: to record
this interview, have this interview transcribed, and deposit the recording and
the transcription in the IUPUI Special Collections and Archives and the Tobias
Center where they may be used by patrons, including posting all or part of the
recording and transcript to the websites of those organizations. Do I have
your permission to do those things?

Bland: Yes, sir.

Scarpino: Thank you very much. I’m going to start, for the sake of anybody who uses this interview in the future, to explain how I’m going to structure it.

Bland: Maybe may have been misunderstood, but when you were talking about
DePauw University in Greencastle, and maybe I misunderstood, but it
sounded like I heard you say Greencastle University.

Scarpino: No, no, I hope I didn’t. Greencastle, Indiana.

Bland: Okay.

Scarpino: If I said that, I misspoke.

Bland: Okay.

Scarpino: Anyway, I’m going to start, as I told you when we had the pre-interview, I’m going to talk about growing up in Indiana, in Indianapolis, and get some context for your life, and we’ll talk about that for a while. I’m going to talk to you about leadership, and then we’ll work our way more or less chronologically through your career with lots of discussion about leadership
and leadership ethics. Tobias Center has some standard leadership questions
that provide continuity for the interviews we’ve done over the years, and I’ll
work some of those in. And I’m just also going to say that part of the fun of doing this is you kind of never know where you’re really headed, so we’re just
going to get started together. And I want to start with some basic demographic
questions, and ask about your parents. So, who were your parents?

Bland: Hattie Bell Hughes Bland and Willie Lee Bland, my parents.

Scarpino: What did your father do while you were growing up in Indianapolis?

Bland: He worked in the factory, he worked several jobs. But I recall what stands out for me, he worked at a gas station fixing cars and pumping gas. He worked, I
think his primary job was at Allison Transmission. He worked at American
Paper Stock Company. And then he did a lot of hauling, hauling trash, hauling
and moving for people.

Scarpino: So, like a self-employed businessman with his own truck?

Bland: Yeah, just... I guess a hustle they would call it. Out trying to pick up some
dollars here and there, moving furniture and moving appliances for people.

Scarpino: What did your mother do while you were growing up?

Bland: I don’t know if my mother worked from the time I recall. At the time I came
along, I think she was at home.

Scarpino: Both of your parents moved to Indianapolis, as I recall. Where did they move from?

Bland: That’s right. My father was born in Vicksburg, Mississippi. And my mother was born in Bovina, Mississippi. And they were both sharecroppers.

Scarpino: They were actually the sharecroppers, or they were the children of
sharecroppers?

Bland: Well, they were sharecroppers and the children of sharecroppers. Yes.

Scarpino: Growing cotton?

Bland: That’s right.

Scarpino: Did they know each other when they left Mississippi?

Bland: They did. Yes, they knew each other in Mississippi. I think they probably lived about seven miles away. They met in Mississippi, and I think they got married in Mississippi, and then not long after they moved to Indianapolis.

Scarpino: Did they ever tell you when they moved to Indianapolis?

Bland: I think my father would’ve been in his 20s, he was born in 1934. So, I think in the mid ‘50s they came to Indianapolis, ’53, ’54, something like that.

Scarpino: Did your parents ever talk to you about life in Mississippi? Things that stand out?

Bland: Not so much when we were younger, no. My mother passed when I was five years old, so I don’t recall much about my mother. I don’t recall much
conversation, just things here and there that she said. And regarding my
father, when we were younger, he didn’t talk much about Mississippi. But then
as we got older and we became curious and began to ask questions, he
began to share more about that life.

Scarpino: Do you recall some of the highlights of what he shared?

Bland: Yeah, there was a reason people were trying to get out of the South, and
blacks were trying to get to the North. It was oppressive work, and this was
coming on the heels of slavery. So, I’m sure there were some forms of slavery
that were still in existence. I just know it was a lot of hard work, sometimes a
lot of cruel treatment, treating Blacks as less than human. But he would also
talk about some of the good people in the midst of so many other bad people.

Scarpino: Do you have any brothers and sisters?

Bland: I do. I’m the youngest of eight.

Scarpino: Oh, my. Was that good or bad?

Bland: Oh, man, it was, I guess, a part of life. All things told, it was good.

Scarpino: The oldest child is how much older than you?

Bland: Eight years.

Scarpino: You said your mom died when you were five. But your dad is still alive, right?

Bland: He is.

Scarpino: As you look back on your long relationship with your father, as a child and now as an adult, how did your father’s example and his expectations of his own children shape the adult you became?

Bland: Oh, on this side of heaven, my father has been my life. I would say, while he didn’t do a of talking about his life, his upbringing, if I were to in essence
reflect on his life and then to distill what I’ve gathered from his life just from
hearing him, watching him, listening to him talk, watching him live his life, I’ve
just been able to distill really five lessons from my father’s life that’s become
part of my life and my walk, and my belief. I think his message to me and to
my siblings would be: Love and honor and serve God with your whole heart.
Always look out for and take care of your family. Work extremely hard,
whatever you do. Get an education, and particularly because he was denied
the opportunity to get an education. So, it was not just the message of
education, but I would say, the degree, the intensity of the message around
the institution of education and learning, and how you just have to get it and
go at it, no excuses. So, get an education. And then, number five, always look out for the next man, always look out for the next woman, always look out for
the person in need. So, that’s my father’s life.

Scarpino: It sounds like a point of view rooted in faith. It sounds like a point of view, perspective on life, rooted in faith.

Bland: Oh, categorically.

Scarpino: When you were growing up in Indianapolis, were there any adults other than your father who had an impact on the adult that you became?

Bland: Most of our time was spent around the church, and so there were those
gentlemen, Sunday school teachers, deacons in the church, who always
served as role models, as mentors, who were always there to encourage, who
were always there to, I guess, admonish, correct when you stepped out of
line. But there was a gentleman by the name of Earl Ballard, he was a deacon
in the church. And his name is Earl Ballard, and they were always close with
the family, close to the family, but my mother and father decided to name me
after Mr. Earl Ballard. So, hence, Dennis Earl Bland.

Scarpino: Huh...

Bland: And, so, Mr. Ballard was one of those, Brother Ballard we called him, he was one of those individuals who was just always around, always positioning
around upstanding, great people.

Scarpino: Mm hmmm, set an example...

Bland: Yeah.

Scarpino: ... for you and other youth.

Bland: Absolutely. And then my father had a good friend, has a good friend, his name is U.Z. Tinker. If we weren’t at the Blands or at the church, we were at U.Z.
Tinker’s house. And he was just another one of these, he was born in
Alabama, and actually why they got along, they both loved God, loved their
families, worked extremely hard, did everything they could to make sure their
children got an education. So, you could see why they were friends. And, so, it
was a lot of times you had this gentleman, and we called him Uncle... Uncle
Tink. So, there was so much kind of parenting and mentoring and discipline
that we received from Mr. Tinker as well.

Scarpino: Associated with the church and, obviously, the worship and the faith, but also the adult role models, was there a social life associated with your church? Dinners, gatherings, dances...?

Bland: What stands out more is the picnics. They were always going to picnics. It was wonderful. I mean, so the social was really with the church. I remember going to visit the different state parks. My father happened to be a bus driver, so,
again, he was heavily invested in the church. And when I look back on my life,
again, without hear him saying, “Do this, do this,” his life just spoke to
volunteerism, giving, caring, helping, serving. I was just sharing with a friend the other day, it would be interesting to be able to tabulate if there was a way
of figuring out, for example, how many times over his adult life that he’s
actually visited the sick in the hospital. It would be a big number. So, this is an
example of the kind of life he lived. Or the number of ways in which he served
in the church, cooking in the cafeteria, or teaching Sunday school class,
driving the bus to these different trips, picking up students and children in
different neighborhoods to carry them to church on the church bus. It wasn’t
just that he was involved and he served, but it was clear that everything he
did, he did with his whole heart. So, again, not just kind of there’s this
distinction between fact and then degree or order of magnitude. So, his was
always, yes, these were the things he’s doing, but then it was the combination
of what he was doing, but then the level or the magnitude of investment which
he did the things that he did.

Scarpino: As you became an adult and lived your own life, did your father’s example shape the way you undertook to develop your adult life?

Bland: Oh, without question, sure, categorically.

Scarpino: I mentioned in the introductory statement the elementary schools that you attended in Indianapolis. And you mentioned to me when we spoke in the preinterview that you were directly involved as a student in the desegregation of
Indianapolis Public Schools ordered by S. Hugh Dillon, Federal Judge, United
States District Court for the Southern District of Indiana. I want to talk to you
about that, but for the sake of anybody who uses this recording in the future,
or this transcript, I want to put just enough context in here so that what you
say fits into something that people might not otherwise know about. I know
you and I know this, but I’m going to share it with future users. In 1971,
Federal Judge Hugh Dillon ruled that the School Board of Indianapolis Public
Schools deliberately operated a racially-segregated school system in violation
of Brown v. Board of Education, U.S. Supreme Court ruling 1954. Judge Dillon
ordered two things: 1) the integration of IPS schools, and 2) the busing of
African American students from IPS to 19 other school districts in Marion
County and six neighboring counties. There was tremendous opposition to this
order, largely from white parents who were opposed to racial integration.
Judge Dillon’s order to integrate IPS schools was reversed on appeal, but his
order to bus Black children from Indianapolis to other school districts in Marion
County was upheld. In August 1981, after a 10-year delay, approximately
5,600 African American students began to be bused from IPS to public
schools in Decatur, Franklin, Lawrence, Perry, Warren and Wayne townships.
The busing order remained in place until 1998, when an agreement was
reached to phase out busing for the next 18 years. So, here’s the question in
that context: When we talked before, in the pre-interview on August 16th, you
told me that, and I’m quoting you, paraphrasing you, “Judge S. Hugh Dillon
was synonymous with my youth.” Can you explain what you meant by that?

Bland: Well, and again, I don’t recall the specific context for my statement. But
clearly, that busing order changed my life in the sense that you had this
certain rhythm around school. Since the time you were going to school, you
walked to school. And you walked to school with your friends, and you walked
to school and you walked back from school, and sometimes you kind of had
the fights and the scuttlebutts along the way going home, walking two or three blocks to and from. But, then, all of a sudden you are getting on the bus early
in the morning and you’re going 30 minutes or 35-minute drive to another
neighborhood, to a different racial demographic, a different environment, a
different school environment, different teachers. So, in that respect. And then
everything from that entire education experience and social experience, and I
would say maybe social experiment. So, meeting new friends, dealing with
prejudice and racism and, I would guess in hindsight, that’s probably just
young people just not knowing better. Whites calling you nigger, but probably
just not knowing better. Again, we were 10 years old, 11 years old, and you’re
just trying to make sense of life. So, I was bused, maybe third grade, fourth
grade, fifth grade, sixth grade, seventh grade, eighth grade. So, all the social
dynamics, all the cultural dynamic, all the racial dynamics, the education
dynamics during that period, so during that formative point in my life, I was
getting that kind of outside of my neighborhood and into a brand new
neighborhood. So, there was a lot to learn, I would say, mostly positive, mostly
favorable, but all of it ultimately working to, I think, help my life and then shape
my viewpoint on life.

Scarpino: So, you said there was a lot to learn. As you look back on it, what do you think you learned from that experience?

Bland: I think above all else that when you kind of get through the talk and the chatter and the back-and-forth that people are people, that humans are humans. In fact, I recall growing up, one of the things, now mind you, before we moved,
we grew up on the west side of Indianapolis, and we were there until I was
probably seven years old or eight years old when my father moved. I was
attending Riverside School #44. And I was at Riverside School #44 from
kindergarten to maybe midway through second grade. I don’t think I ever saw
a white person in that neighborhood or in that school. And, so then, we moved
near 30th and College area, over by the fairgrounds, and I attended Henry P.
Coburn. And so now we’re shocked because you maybe see 10 white people.
It was like, well, you’d never seen any, and now here, in fact, there was even
a Chinese person. So, I guess that was the diversity. You went from seeing no
whites to maybe, like, 10 of them, and a Chinese, a guy named Jimmy Chan.
And so it was like, oh, wow, there are white people here. But then you go from
there to being bused maybe a year or two later, and then now, 98% of the
school was white.

Scarpino: And where were you bused to?

Bland: The far east side. Charles Warren Fairbanks #105 for middle school or
elementary school, and then T.C. Steele for middle school. So then there was
that major shift. First of all, here are these guys and friends that you were
going to school with. Well, some remained at School #66, some got bused, so
there was kind of that separation. But, then again, you’re going to this new
environment, new neighborhoods, meeting new people. So, I remember us
thinking, and me thinking, huh, every white person who wears glasses is not
smart. And every white person is not rich. But that’s just what I remember
growing up, every white person is rich and everybody who has on glasses is
smart. I mean, the things you pick up as a young person. But then, I
remember being bused to this school, and I remember I would see white
people and they would have, like, holes in their pants, and I remember even thinking then, like, my heart kind of going out to them. Like, oh wow. So, all
that to say, for all the kind of micro-lessons and experiences and interactions,
and people trying to find their way, it was just one of those salient experiences
about the reality of being human, and the reality that the more you’ve got a
chance to meet and socialize and interact with people, the more you realize
that people are people, different upbringing, different cultures, different family
upbringings, and all those things that make us different, but yet in some
fundamental respects, we were just all kids. And people are people. And I
think that was probably the greatest takeaway for me.

Scarpino: Did you play together on the playground?

Bland: Oh, sure. Absolutely. And again, over time, because now you’re in fourth
grade, fifth grade, sixth grade, seventh grade, eighth grade, now you’re
coming back, you’re actually meeting people, you’re developing friendships.
So, you’re playing on the basketball team, or you’re playing on the football
team together. But, again, there were some of the racial tensions, but it was
more so people getting to know each other and people having fun and people
becoming friends.

Scarpino: You attended Broad Ripple High School from 1979 to 1983. When you were in high school at Broad Ripple, were there any individuals, any adults you
encountered there who had a significant impact on shaping the adult that you
became?

Bland: I guess as I think about high school, and I guess the time in which I went to high school, I think that was still a period where there was this overall sense of
respect for the education community generally. And there was respect for the
profession. So, some of these things could have been happening, but there
certainly wasn’t the degree of I guess fraternization between educators and
the students. I mean the educators were regarded and respected. There was
nothing you thought that would cause you to have a sense of disrespect for
them. So, the educators, I mean the way they dressed, the way they
addressed you. So, there were many educators where I just thought, this is
how adults conduct business. This is what’s expected of adults. I would say
my basketball coach because I played basketball four years, and there was a
guy named Bill Smith, he left a lot of impressions upon me, not necessarily
because of the kind of person he was. I mean, he could be profane, he could
be one of those old-school vintage coaches, he was that. But beyond that, he
was a good person in the principles of life, namely, excellence, commitment,
preparation, those things that just stick with you, where in hindsight you don’t
appreciate how much people’s values are shaping your own. But his
commitment, and what he did, his commitment as a teacher, his commitment
as a coach. And there was a lady by the name of Katherine Burkes
(spelling?). There was a lady by the name of Furniss Holloway. Katherine
Burkes taught etymology. Furniss Holloway taught me in, maybe, freshman
English, and then, maybe, English as a junior, English as a senior. And these
teachers were just, they just demanded and expected nothing less than your
best. They were excellent teachers. They didn’t accept excuses, they didn’t
endure nonsense. And so, I think it’s more these principles and character
traits are attached to people, but it was more the character traits that I was
drawing from people that I think consciously and unconsciously, were shaping and reinforcing my value system and my thoughts and my view on life and
how you treat people.

Scarpino: That’s part of excellence in teaching, isn’t it, that the person both imparts content, and serves as a character role model?

Bland: Yeah, I think, absolutely. I think I appreciate even more so kind of that
character content dynamic. That’s interesting you mentioned that because
even -- this is probably getting ahead, but as I think my own leadership
approach I’ve shared with my staff and my co-workers, I’ve said, for me, it’s a
five-fold approach just trying to do this work. Every day I come to the Center
for Leadership Development, I’m trying to become better in five areas:
character, competence, stewardship, accountability and results. So, when you
talk about the teachers and the character, the competence, well, I think all
those things are shaping because, for me, I’m not so much impressed with
your teaching ability if your character is poor. But I was introduced to teachers
who had great character. And the teachers that I admire were teachers whose
lives seemed to be consistent with my upbringing and what I was taught how
people ought to act and behave, and it was consistent with my faith
upbringing. Like, this is how people, upstanding people talk. This is how they
act. This is how they live. And, so, I was seeing that in some of these
educators.

Scarpino: So, as you became an adult in a leadership position, and then of course here at the Center, would it be fair to say that some of things that influence the kind of leader you are is the education you got, the adult role models that you encountered, your faith, and what else would you put into that mix?

Bland: I think you about covered it. I can certainly see and understand how the
expression came up, whoever created, whoever coined it, but us being
products of our environment, because I’m the product of my environment. So,
the family, the faith, and specifically just my family’s history, and then
obviously my own experiences kind of growing up and seeing life and seeing
how life plays out. And I will say, as I got older, as you begin to kind of, first of
all, kind of take in life, and then after taking in life, at some point you begin to
shape your own thoughts about life based upon how life has kind of come to
you, and how you’ve come to life, and kind of have thought of life,
observations about life, and then you begin to shape your own thoughts about
life. And, then based upon these thoughts, and bringing these thoughts and
experiences to bear, at some point, I guess you begin to say, and then this is
then how I will begin going forward to consciously navigate and negotiate life
based upon some observation and consequent beliefs. And I think then that’s
what happened to me at some point. If you’re having these interactions, you’re
going to school, you have these observations, one of the things that begin to
percolate within me, kind of bringing in all of these experiences to bear, was
that there just wasn’t going to be any fulfillment, and there will be no fulfillment
for me in life, unless there is an investment and a commitment to helping to
build and enrich and elevate the lives of others.

Scarpino: Obviously, the point of this and my work with oral history has to do with leadership; do you think that part of who you are as a leader is the fact that you’ve thought these things through, and that you, for example, can clearly lay
out five principles? Do you think, I mean, you’ve interacted with a large
number of people in your adult life, do you think that most leaders do that, that
they really self-consciously think through what makes a good leader and the
qualities of their own character and their own education and their own
experience that can help them fit the mold of what they think a leader should
be?

Bland: I guess...

Scarpino: In other words, are you an exception or the rule?

Bland: I think it becomes important to, first of all, qualify our definition of leadership. I think oftentimes the conversation around leadership tends to be around some assumptions we have in terms of that we are all on the same page about what we mean by “leader.” I just think that it’s important to qualify what we mean. So, I think depending upon how we define leader, or what quality or what
grade we mean or have in mind when we talk about leader. For example,
you’re talking about exceptional, high-quality, impactful, transformative
leaders. My inclination is those types have given some reflection and thought
and read a lot and observed a lot. And I will say, for me, I don’t know if that
has been natural for me, but I do know that the passing of my mother at such
an early age was one of those events that probably caused me to do perhaps
more thinking and reflecting and meditating and observing, perhaps, than I
otherwise would’ve. Because I do just recall a period in life where it wasn’t
necessarily, it wasn’t melancholic, but it was just more stoic, just more like,
what’s going on? What’s this thing called life all about? As I say, you’re five
years old and you’re getting up kind of counting heads. Like if there was 10
people in the house, and it was just kind of like that, and now there are nine
people in the house. It was me and nine other people, and then there was me
and eight other people. And so, now, you’re kind of like, and if all the heads
are still there, those folks you’re getting to know as brothers and sisters, if
they’re there then everything is good with the world. So, I think life, part life,
part personality, part learning from others have created situations where I’ve
been asked or forced or shaped into this place of thinking. And I think just the
education, just kind of my own experiences where I think about, again, my
church upbringing and the school upbringing, the decisions of adults have
fashioned for me a life where you are required to sit and listen and take notes
and observe. I mean, that was what… and so it was a part of the upbringing.
That’s what Sunday school was about, you had a chance to become reflective
because you were required to.

Scarpino: I’m going to talk to you a lot more about leadership in a few minutes, but I was talking to you about Broad Ripple, and I want to follow up on your education so I don’t lose that thread. One more question about Broad Ripple. You were there from ’79 to ’83, how would you describe race relations at Broad Ripple while you were there?

Bland: Oh, very nice. Good. Collegial. It was a good environment, great environment. One of the things that stands out with me in Broad Ripple, I don’t know why I decided at some point to run for student council and become student council president, but it happened.

Scarpino: Did people encourage you to do it?

Bland: I don’t recall, I don’t know, I don’t think so. But I remember, like, maybe on the basketball team, I was a captain. But I remember maybe as a sophomore,
maybe junior, and the coach said -- you know you have certain students that
get out eighth period, certain students get out ninth period, and there’s like, for
the students who are getting out ninth period, the later, there was training,
conditioning, pre-conditioning. And so I remember the coach saying, “Dennis,
for the later group, then you lead that group, when you’re running from Broad
Ripple to, in combat boots, running from the high school over to Broad Ripple
Park and then kind of doing calisthenics, sprints in combat boots. He asked
me to lead the sessions for the later group of guys who planned on going out
for the basketball team.

Scarpino: Combat boots. Were you in ROTC, is that why?

Bland: Oh, no, just kind of Bill Smith’s regimen of trying to get his basketball players ready, so you didn’t run in sneakers, you ran in combat boots. That was kind of one of his things. But then, something else about Broad Ripple, specifically, and you just never know consciously or unconsciously how these things are brought to bear, but something that always stood out, just kind of like
freshman year in orientation and getting these notebooks, and there was a
notebook that they passed out. And on the notebook, there’s a picture of
Broad Ripple High School, and then there’s the logo of Broad Ripple. And
then, on this logo, B-R-H-S – Broader, Richer, Human, Service. Freshman,
sophomore, junior year, going through life, there was something about that
that just always, it planted. And it was just always kind of there. So, again, I
don’t know what our leadership, how, to what extent it played or shaped the
different experiences, but that was definitely one of those because it’s one that
just, really, it stuck.

Scarpino: It also sounds like, you know, at an age-appropriate level, you were a leader in high school yourself. Captain of the team, and so on and so forth. You
graduated in 1983. When you were graduating from Broad Ripple High
School, what did you imagine or hope the future was going to hold for you?
Where did you want your life to go?

Bland: Well, going into high school, I thought I was going to go into the NBA. Going into college, you’re good to make a college team. But going into college, the thought what, I was going to become a medical doctor, become a doctor. That obviously didn’t work out, but the reason for being a doctor was, again, I
thought this is my path to go on to help people.

Scarpino: When you graduated, you left high school and you went to DePauw
University. Why did you pick that college, or university?

Bland: I remember speaking to a guidance counselor, a lady by the name of Marilyn Dearing. She was head of counselors. They were the senior counselors. She was helping the students prepare for college if this is where you’re going. I
remember talking to her, and of course I was playing basketball, and so I had
met with her, and I was talking about the different schools from which I had received letters, you know, they say we’ve been watching you, we’d like to
know more about you. No offers, but just letters from some schools
expressing interest. And I said, I got a letter from Butler, I got a letter from
Cornell. I said I got a letter from DePauw, and she was kind of like, “You got a
letter from DePauw?” I said, “Yes.” She said, “That’s where you’re going.” And
it was just like that. Again, I’m 17, 18 years old, so I didn’t say, like, “Well,
what do you mean that’s where I’m going? No, I haven’t started this process,
I’m going to look into these other schools and see what’s out there and see
what really fits me.” But there was none of that. When I mentioned DePauw,
she stopped, and said, “Oh, DePauw, you’re going there.” And I think I may
have even said something like, “Yeah, well there are these other schools...”
And she said, “Yeah, but you want to go to DePauw. It’s a great school.” And I
was just kind of like...

Scarpino: Did that turn out to be the case?

Bland: What?

Scarpino: Did it turn out that DePauw was a great school for you?

Bland: It was a great school. I’m not sure it was the best school for me, all things
considered, socially, whatever. It was difficult or challenging for a Black.

Scarpino: Not too many Black students there?

Bland: No. But the education was, yeah, I don’t know what other schools offered, but it was, I think it was as advertised.

Scarpino: You majored in business?

Bland: Yeah, I ended up majoring in economics.

Scarpino: Okay. Why did you pick economics?

Bland: Well actually I started out, again, doing science courses with the thought that I would do pre-med, business. And then as time went on, that’s when I
recognized, well, no, the science track isn’t for me, and the business track is.
And they didn’t have a “business.” Anyone who has an interest related to
business, well at a liberal arts school economics was the path.

Scarpino: When you were attending DePauw, as you look back on it, were there any adult individuals who had a significant impact on you while you were there in
shaping the adult you later became?

Bland: I mean, not personally. But, again, you had professors that you respected.
Scarpino: Were you a good student?

Bland: I think average, B average, B-plus.

Scarpino: When you graduated from DePauw in 1987, again, where did you think your life was headed then? What did you hope would happen?

Bland: Maybe it was junior year, you know you had these meetings in college or
these different call-out meetings saying here’s the pre-law society if you are
interested in learning. And I remember going to one of those, just kind of
going. And maybe it wasn’t long after that, that I thought well maybe there’s a
path in law. I think maybe like junior year. And so then, leaving DePauw, I was
clear that I wanted to go and work, maybe work for a couple of years, earn
money, and then go back to school.

Scarpino: I’m going to shift gears here a little bit, and I’m going to talk specifically about leadership. And I’m going to ask you a question that I was dying to ask you a few minutes ago, and didn’t. And that is, how do you define leadership? Because you mentioned when you were talking that there are many different definitions and people look at it different. So, I’m wondering how Dennis Bland defines leadership?

Bland: I find myself to try to be a very basic and pragmatic person. What works?
What’s practical and manageable? And for me, leadership is, you know, good
or bad, right or wrong, effective or ineffective, leadership ultimately comes
down to making introductions.

Scarpino: Talk about that. How does leadership come down to making introductions?

Bland: I think I come to that definition of leadership because if you actually look at the word introduction, introducer. And that word actually breaks down to meaning “to lead within,” or “to lead inside.” So I thought, huh, if an introduction means to lead inside, those who are introducing are actually demonstrating some
form of leadership. And so you think about that from a practical level, when I
think about leadership in a very basic sense, what you’re really talking about is
a person who has the authority, or the microphone, or the gavel, having the
power to do or say or point or to direct; and whatever they are doing or saying
or directing, they are introducing. And then from the introductions that are
made, there’s first of all the introduction, and then there are the consequences
and the ramifications and implications that come from what’s being introduced.
So, Hitler was a person, and whatever his belief and construct, he made
introductions. And then there were consequences and ramifications from what
he introduced. Martin Luther King was someone else defined as a leader. And
based upon his belief, his morals, his views on life, he had some introductions
to make. And then based upon whatever it was he introduced, there were
reactions from society, reaction from community, reaction from the public. And
so, likewise, for me, leadership is ultimately bringing your beliefs, your values,
your constitution, all that you bring to bear, bringing that into a position,
introducing that to those people with whom you’re connected or those people
you’re trying to influence, and then there being some outgrowth, or outcome,
or biproduct, or ramification and implication based upon what you are
introducing or giving. Bob Knight comes along, come from, I guess, West
Point, comes to Indiana University, and where he introduces an offense. He
introduces a level of discipline. He introduces, I mean whatever, like it or hate
it, here was an introduction. Here’s a connection made between what I’m
introducing and the people I’m leading, and then here is the effect, or influence, or result or outcomes of what it is the person is introducing. Based
upon what that introduction is and based upon what the outcomes and results
are, then people will sit back and say, that leadership was effective, or that
leadership was ineffective, that leadership advanced society, or that
leadership caused society to regress.

Scarpino: In your understanding, the way you view leadership, leaders can be, you know, good, socially beneficial people like Martin Luther King, or they can be
really evil people like Hitler, they still have leadership qualities.

Bland: Yes, we give them the opportunity to make introductions. We give the power of the mic. We give the floor.

Scarpino: This question that I’m going to ask you, asks you to reflect on leaders. And, what do you think are the qualities that distinguish effective leadership?

Bland: When we’re talking about effective leadership, I think the qualities that
distinguish effective leaders is that effective leaders go beyond position, they
go beyond power, they have position, they have the power, but what’s
ultimately driving effective leadership from my observation is that these
leaders have endowments. And the more endowments you have, then you
become endowment-rich.

Scarpino: Explain what you mean by endowments.

Bland: Sure. By endowments, I mean certain capacities or aptitudes of the head and heart. So, for example, an effective leader has the endowment of integrity.
We’re just going to do it the right way, we’re going to do it, there’s not going to
be any fudging of the books. There’s not going to be any lying. There’s not
going to be any, this is what I want you to think, this is where I’m guiding you
to think, though it may not be the case. I want you to believe this, but it’s not
necessarily factual, but I want you to believe. An effective leader understands
that integrity and honesty are sacrosanct. An effective leader is endowed with
the ability to have a vision. An effective leader has knowledge. An effective
leader has wisdom. An effective leader has selflessness. And the more of
these endowments, these enablers that you have, then the more equipped the
person is to influence and guide and direct towards a desired goal or objective
or outcome.

Scarpino: When you work here as the leader of this organization, and the organization has goals and hoped-for outcomes related to a teaching plan, how do you go about conveying a vision to the people who work for you about how they’re going to get there? How they’re going to reach those goals?

Bland: I try to talk about what the vision is, and why it is. And I try to talk about, in the spirit of consciousness-raising, I try to talk about why it’s so important. Here’s the benefit if these things happen. Here’s the problem we’re trying to solve. This is why it’s so important that we be involved in this. I try to talk about a
goal or a benchmark, a target that we’re trying to hit, and then I just tend to be
motivational. As the old express goes, if you aim for nothing, you’ll hit it every
time.

Scarpino: That’s true.

Bland: So, a vision of, if I see something, I always use the analogy of, you can put a board there and you say, hit the center, hit the center, and the person is just
kind of throwing darts and trying to hit the center. Except all you have to do
oftentimes is just take some red nail polish, and take that nail polish and just
put a little dab, paint a little dab in the middle of that board, and then look at
how much more closely those darts are getting to that center just because you
put a target there. And I think that’s what vision and goals represent for
people. And then that, combined with why it’s necessary and how it helps
humanity if we do it and what happens if we don’t do it, that’s what I try to
convey to the people with whom I work. And then I’m also trying to convey that
while this is the goal that we’re trying to hit, this is the North Star, this is why it
should matter to us, I’m also trying to convey that, to make this happen, I’m
going to do more listening than I am talking. Because, again in my mind,
listening, and more than just hearing, but listening becomes one of those
critical endowments to success. When we’re trying to carry out this mission
and when we’re trying to achieve our goals that helps us fulfill this mission, the
reason it’s so important for me to listen is because I’m trying to find the best
idea in the room. And that idea, that best idea, may not come from me. I really
just want the best idea that’s going to help this go forward. And so it’s
important for me to listen because in listening I may find that best idea from
one of my colleagues, and I typically do. But this is why I say, in fact one of
the things I’ve had to say so often during the time that I’ve worked at the
Center for Leadership Development, you know different people transition over
the years, and I’ve been here 21 years now, but over that 21-year period, one
of the things I’ve found myself saying on more than a few occasions, where
there’s conversation, someone is speaking, and then someone else chimes in,
and then I have to interrupt just to say, “Oh, excuse me, but Kim was not
finished. She had not finished her statement.” “Oh, I’m sorry, I’m sorry.” “Well,
that’s okay.” But I really want to hear what everybody has to say when there’s
an opportunity to speak because what’s important to me is that there’s a best
idea in the room. And it’s not important that that idea has come from me.

Scarpino: Would you say that one of the qualities of effective leadership is to create that environment in which people believe that they contribute ideas that will be listened to? I mean, whether or not they’re all embraced is different, but…

Bland: Well, that’s right. Yes, I think so, sure. And then just modeling that, as I said, but by that, just like, “Oh, no, wait, wait, wait, she wasn’t...” And then
sometimes just actually saying, “Do you realize that you cut her off?” Or
saying to her, “Do you realize you cut him off?” I just notice, oftentimes I’ve
noticed at least in some of the meetings where I’ve been in, I’ve noticed that
some people do that fairly regularly. So it just makes me think about whether
or not people are really taking to heart what other people are sharing. In fact,
I’ve actually been in meetings where I’ve said, in a few meetings where I’ve
listen to conversations, listen to conversation, kind of listened to the back-andforth, and I’ve said, “I’m concerned about talking over other people. And one
of the main reasons I’m concerned about it is because, if we are prepared to
talk before someone is finished, then I’m not convinced that we’re actually
listening to what people are saying.” And I said, “And that concerns me,
because one of the reasons that concerns me, besides the fact that I think it’s rude and inconsiderate, but it concerns me, and from a very practical
standpoint, I guess you all don’t even realize that over the last three to five
minutes, a lot of the things that you are sharing, you’re actually saying about
the same thing. Except maybe state it differently, framed it, but in essence
you’re literally saying the same thing. But because you’re not even taking time
to really listen to what the other people is saying, you haven’t been able to
recognize that.”

Scarpino: How would you describe your style of leadership?

Bland: I describe my style of leadership this way: When I started working at the
Center for Leadership Development, in one of our board meetings I shared
with the board, I guess I shared a couple of thoughts: One thought was, I
didn’t come here… you know, this whole talk about, you know, if we can just
reach one we’ll be all fine. If we can just reach one then it would have been all
worthwhile. And, I said, “Well, I didn’t leave the practice of law to come and
reach one.” I said, “I want to reach thousands.” I said, “If I come into this work,
all this faith, all this hard work, all this effort, all this sacrifice and we reach
one, then I’m going to go and congratulate the one that we reach, and I’m so
happy for your success. I’m going to congratulate that person, then I’m going
to immediately tender my resignation.” I said, “I want to reach thousands.” But
the second, I guess, point that I mentioned to our board is, they’re talking
about style; I said, “In this work, if this ever becomes just 1% about me, then I
have failed. So, I think, if there was a style, it would be that I’m here to carry
out the mission. And, however little or however much that involves me
personally, that’s whatever it is and that’s whatever it takes. But, the way I see
me going about trying to carry out the mission is, if there’s an ability to carry
out that mission and get the work done and no one knows it’s me doing it,
then that’s actually just fine. Really, it is okay.” I said, “In fact, one of the things
I notice about nonprofits is that the leaders that are associated with the
organization and the organization are viewed as that’s synonymous.” Now, to
an extent, I understand that. So, actually you have some tangibles in there. I
said, “But I’ve at least tried to be considerate enough to say, as much as I can
I want to make sure that this is always about the mission of
the Center for Leadership Development, and not about me, because at some
point I will not be at the Center for Leadership Development and I don’t want
there to be any thought that because Dennis is not at the Center for
Leadership Development then there is a no-go at the Center. Whereas, if it’s
been all about the mission all along, then hopefully it becomes that much
easier for somebody else to come and continue on the mission because it’s
always been about the mission anyway. Whereas it becomes, if you have an
organization that is so tied to a leader and everything is about me and
everything comes my way, everything must go through me, and everything
has to be about me, then I’ve found oftentimes that when that person leaves,
then oftentimes that organization and its mission, it tanks.” So I’ve always
tried, my style is, let me know the mission of the organization, and then what
is my responsibility and my role to help bring people together to help carry out
that mission?

Scarpino: With that philosophy, view, understanding of leadership, how does that
influence the types of people that you hire to work for you? What do you look
for in the followers?

Bland: Well, I look for people who are like-minded. I always said, let’s make even a part of our organization a value system in our employee handbook. Let’s make
it about character, competence, stewardship, accountability and results. So,
we’re looking for character. This is what we’re looking for, these character
traits. We are looking for people who have, yes, skill in your work, but first and
foremost, is there the integrity? Is there the hard work? Is there the
selflessness? Is there the high regard and respect for young people? Do you
have character in the broadest, truest, richest sense? And then do you have
the competency at your job? Can you excel at your job? Do you commit to
being excellent at the work? And then, are you mindful of stewardship and
really holding in trust what other people have been entrusted to you? The
children, money, resources, is there the stewardship? Is there the
accountability of, hey, I’m wrong, I’m so sorry, but I’ll admit that I’m wrong, I
need to better? And then, likewise, no, you said you were going to do about
this day, and then being a day off is unacceptable. It’s the accountability. We
want to be responsible. We want to be accountable. And then, I feel like that
character, competence, stewardship, accountability, then those tend to drive
number five. They tend to result in the results and the outcomes and the
performance. So, I’m just looking for those people because I know those are
the ones we’re going to be in-synch with.

Scarpino: What do you think has worked well for you when it comes to your style of leadership?

Bland: I think what works well is that you get an opportunity to understand and learn. You get an opportunity to know what informs, so that you’re alt to be in a
position to make the best decision, or the most prudent decisions, the most
sagacious decisions, the wisest decisions, because that style is about
listening and observing, reading, studying, and then bringing all that to bear to
say, here is a path forward based upon what I’m hearing, what I’m observing,
what I’ve heard from my colleagues. I think that, and then just not being hasty.
I think that’s worked well.

Scarpino: Over the years, what has not worked so well about your style of leadership?

Bland: I guess it depends upon the people, the personalities. I think there are some people, I don’t if it’s the leadership that hasn’t worked well, I think it’s more so the reaction to the leadership, where there’s some people who may think
because you don’t have the domineering, slap-the-table, curse out your coworker, call somebody this and that word, use expletives in whatever you’re
saying, oftentimes people expect that, and when they don’t have that, maybe
they feel like there’s somebody that they don’t have to respect, or maybe
someone they can disregard because it’s just not the person who’s going to
beat you up. And so sometimes you find people who may be challenging
because they don’t know better.

Scarpino: Because they identify leadership with the table-pounding and yelling and cursing and, you know...

Bland: That’s right. So maybe they are more inclined…

Scarpino: Sounds like my drill sergeant.

Bland: It sounds like they’re more inclined to challenge.

Scarpino: I’m going to shift away from the standard leadership questions, and I’m going to draw on some of the information I got from folks I talked to whose names you gave me. I talked to four people. I mentioned their names. And two of the four folks that I talked to about your career and your accomplishments
described you as a servant-leader, and they used that term, and I don’t even
know if they know each other. Do you agree with their characterization of you
as a servant-leader?

Bland: Yes, that’s one of the principal charges of the faith, of Christianity. He is who is greatest among you shall be your servant. So, when I talk about the
listening, all of that is service. When I talk about a mission and a goal of trying
to do that, the motivation behind all of that is trying to put the organization in
the best position to help people. And even in the meantime, trying to be in the
best position to help those individuals who are actually working with me in that
mission. So, we’re going to help, I want to serve the people that we’re here to
serve, and in doing that I want to be in a position where I can be of help and
be of a blessing to my co-workers.

Scarpino: That term, servant leadership gets kicked around a lot. But, based upon my looking into this, the first person who published and used the term servantleader was a man named Robert K. Greenleaf, 1978. He had actually retired from AT&T as an executive. And he thought of this servant leadership idea as a kind of a leadership that he thought was missing in organizations like AT&T.
He wrote a bunch of books, and I’m going to mention one because I think it
should be on the record, it’s called “The Power of Servant Leadership”
published in 1998, a long time after he died, it was published posthumously.
When this book was published, the press found a scholar named Peter Vaill,
University of St. Thomas, to write a forward. And I want to read a couple of
lines from that forward, and then I want to ask you some questions. So this is
written by Peter Vaill, upon the publication after Greenleaf’s death of “The
Power of Servant Leadership.” And Vaill says: “The big idea is that leadership
in the final analysis must be about service. That is the only way that it can
both sustain itself as leadership and truly offer to its colleagues and followers
the benefits of its insights and energy.” And then he goes on to say: “I think
Greenleaf is saying that leadership is a special case of service; he’s not
saying that service is a special case of leadership. He’s not asking what
service you can render as a leader, but what leadership can you render as a
servant.” And I also say that Greenleaf does incorporate faith into that book,
and it just wasn’t in the quote that I read here. So, the questions: Do you
agree with the idea expressed by Peter Vaill in his forward to “The Power of
Servant Leadership,” that leadership in the final analysis must be about
service?

Bland: For me it does.

Scarpino: So, let’s see if I can focus this a little bit. How have you put the idea that leadership must be about service into action in your time here as president of the Center for Leadership Development? How do you take that idea and turn it
into action in the real world in which this organization functions?

Bland: Sure. Martin Luther King, in talking about the meaning and true value of
education, and he was saying that a true education is not only the power of
concentration, but worthy objectives on which to concentrate. If the objectives
are meaningful, if they’re impactful, if they’re consequential, if they can help
life, elevate life, sublimate life, then they constitute areas and initiatives worth
getting involved in to help push. Because, again, life will be better, life will be
improved, circumstances will be enhanced because of that worthy objective.
And because you start out with worthy objectives, then that is what, for me,
makes it that much more imperative that you’re intentional about the business
model so that you can actually achieve success, versus having a worthy
objective but then having no ability to create a plan and a process for actually
achieving your objective. You just have some ideas, and it was a great idea,
you had some worthy objectives, some worthy goals you wanted to achieve,
but then you were never able to accomplish them. So, translating that into, or
taking service and finding a way to put feet up under it so that you can actually
achieve, because those goals are so worthy, in our case, helping young
people realize their God-given potential I think it’s one of the greatest, most
honorable, most noble things that a person could ever do on this side of earth,
because young people are so vulnerable. And I think that’s a part of my
upbringing that I’ve recognized, just that vulnerable state. There’s this great
potential, but then also there’s this great vulnerability. And so to be able to be
in that space and recognizing that here’s an opportunity for a young person to
go this way or go that way, and here’s an opportunity to get involved, to
interact, to provide some intervention, where if you are good at this
intervention, there’s a greater likelihood that the person will be able to realize
their potential, the understanding of what this service is about, that the worthy
objective is about vulnerable young people, that’s what then makes us say the
business model has to be strong. That’s what makes us say the character has
to be strong. The skill, the competence, the knowledge in our work has to be
great. We’re just trying to get better every day. I always say pound for pound
or dollar for dollar, I don’t have any less expectation of our work and the
impact we have, the results that we make, the quality of the work that we do, I
have no less expectation of the work we do in this small organization than Lilly
has for his work in molecules, or Allison has for his work in transmissions.
Again, the resources are different, markedly, the capacity is different, but the
expectation is the exact same. We have very high expectation around the skill
level in this mission. We have the stewardship component that we want to be
committed to. We have the accountability, and we want the result. Why?
Because the objective is such a worthy objective.

Scarpino: A few minutes ago, you talked about youth and you talked about two qualities: potential and vulnerability. And, if you look at the time when you were a young man in high school at Broad Ripple and then all the years that you’ve been working up until now, and you think about the youth that you serve, has that relationship between potential and vulnerability changed in that time period?

Bland: I think the potential is still there. I think, yes, there is a greater distance
between the potential and the actual realization of that potential.

Scarpino: Can you explain what you mean by distance between potential and realization of potential?

Bland: Sure. I think young people are less equipped for the opportunities that are
there. And I think they’re less equipped for the opportunities that are there to
make that potential actual. I think they’re less equipped because we have
done young people a disservice. I think, unfortunately, there’s a term called, a
Latin phrase, ‘nullius filius,’ and it means the son of nobody. So, I think the
reality is, whenever we bring children into this world without mother and father,
whenever father abandons child, in my universe, that’s not a political issue,
that’s a humanity issue. We tend to banter that back, whether that’s a
Democratic position or a Republican position. No, it’s a human issue. And you
see more young people who are growing up without a mother, without a
father, and so you see these young people then who are left to fend in this
society by themselves. And, so then when we meet young people, oftentimes
you see more and more young people who are not equipped with the
rudiments to be able to move toward success because I have, through
neglect, and through abuse, I present myself in a way where I’m so hollowed
out. Some of the basics and some of the foundational elements of human
development and human support are not there when you meet young people.
And so, whereas a generation ago, you could come in and bring young people
into the Center for Leadership Development, the fundamentals are there, and
you say, how do we take these fundamentals and then actually use this as a
basis for cultivating you to actually realize your potential? Contrast that today,
and you bring young people in and you say, well, step number one is that we
take these disparate, disjointed pieces that represent you and try to bring
them together, try to create some sense of self-worth, and some sense of self
dignity, and some sense of self-esteem, and self-concept. And having that
somehow brought together as a starting point, now we can begin the work of
actually trying to empower that piece that has been brought together, or at
least you’re trying to bring together, but loosely. And that’s the difference in
how young people, because they represent so hollowed-out and so damaged
by society and the decisions of adults, then you find themselves having to
make up so much more ground to realize their potential. And that’s what I
mean. I gave a presentation to a group in Athens, Georgia, it was a youth
convention, and I shared, I thought it was a great conversation, a presentation
around football and the option. I liked it. But I said, “I have a topic that I want
to talk to you about.” I said, “I know this is football-loving country, but I’m going
to get to this topic.” I said, “But before I get to this topic, there’s something I’m
just burning to share with you all. I really want to talk about this topic, but I
can’t get to this topic until I share this with the young people”. And what I
shared with them, and I find myself saying this periodically when I’m with a
group of young people, I said, “Are you open for an apology? You know,
oftentimes (inaudible) are in school with your parents and people are asking
you to apologize. Are you to receiving an honest and earnest apology from an
adult?” And you know, as you can imagine, they have quizzical looks, they’re
kind of dumbfounded, like “what?” And I said to the young people, I said, “I
want to look you in the eye and with a sincere heart I want to tell you that I so
terribly sorry for the way that we, as the adult population, have managed to
help screw up your life. You’re dealing with laws that adults passed. You’re
dealing with the decisions of adults, whether an adult decided not to parent
you or an adult decided to leave you, an adult decided to introduce you sometimes to drugs, introduce you to selling drugs. Oftentimes you are
dealing, and trying to deal, with the ramifications of decisions that adults
made. And then we turned around and ask, what’s wrong with you?” I said,
“So, I’m wondering if you would accept my apology?” And I just see that that’s
where we are. So much of society, young people, they’re suffering from the
decisions that we as adults have made.

Scarpino: If we go back to the pairing that you laid out a few minutes ago, potential and vulnerability, over the years that you’ve been doing this, the youth that you serve, they may still have the potential but they have become more
vulnerable, how has the approach here in the Center changed as the
population it serves becomes more vulnerable?

Bland: Well, in a conceptual way, it hasn’t because the vulnerability of the young
people for us reinforces the power of our values-based model, meaning we
think our young people need exposure and introductions, like never before, to
character and what it is, and character formation. Because it’s the character
things that help a person to actually begin to understand and grow and
develop and fill in some of those hollow parts. Again, the character, so let’s
talk about love and self-respect, what is it? Let’s talk about self-regard. Let’s
talk about morality. And let’s talk about, in light of these things, again, the
ramifications of whatever we choose to do, there are ramifications, there are
consequences. You find a number of young people have never heard the
terms, or they’ve heard the terms but “I can’t define these terms. But you’re
telling me these terms actually make the difference between whether or not
people move forward or not.” So, those principles are there. And so, society
just tells us... it reaffirms the importance of these pillars in trying to develop
young people. Now, from a practical standpoint, what we have done in light of
change in society is say, number one, we have to get many more people into
and exposed to these programs. And then, number two, we have to be that
much more intentional about making sure that these character-based
principles are actually introduced uniformly throughout the different programs
and experiences that we offer. A young person needs to know what the word
‘optimism’ means. They need to know what the word ‘hope’ means. They
need to be exposed to this word ‘perseverance’, and what does it really
mean? I always say when I meet with successful adults, I mean very
successful adults -- I know I’m true to the mission because I’m asking about
their lives for the benefit of trying to see what I can learn and pass on to the
young people that we serve. And one of the things that I like asking successful
people, not how did you get here or what was your trajectory? One of my
favorite questions is: Can you tell me five character traits that you possess
which, if you are honestly speaking, you would tell me that without these
character traits you can assure me that you would not have achieved the level
of success that you’ve achieved? There are some character traits you may not
have possessed, but you would have been successful anyway. But as you
think about it, if you give it some thought, can you identify for me five
character traits where you could say without equivocation, if I had not had the
character trait of curiosity, no, there’s no way I would have been a PhD in
chemistry. Or, no, there is absolutely no way I’d be a president of a Fortune
500 company. I wouldn’t be able to run a company of two people, let alone
40,000 employees, if I had not had … I say, what are those five character
traits? So, for me, character kind of gets to the essence of the matter. It’s the matter of the head and the heart that come out in the hands. That’s where we
live, it’s the vital force. These are the things that drive us. And, when I ask the
question, and as I ask the different CEOs or leaders or impressive people, and
I say, well, isn’t it interesting that three of the character traits that you
mentioned are character traits that I would imagine young people that we work
with have never heard of, as it were, not whether they understand what it
means. I would imagine most of the young people would not even recognize
these words, let alone recognize what they mean. I said, now, the reason that
concerns me is because you have told me that there is no way you would
have achieved success without it. Well, if there are ever any elements where a
person says, a highly successful person tells you, that I would not have, under
any circumstance, achieved success without these elements, then I would
think that that has to be the first part of a curricula that you’re introducing to
young people. I want to know what you could not have succeeded without,
and I want to take that to mean, oh, then those are Hope Diamonds. It seems
like these things are the things that I want to be introducing to young people
and say, hey, from this 55-year-old millionaire, or a leader of this successful
business, or a leader of this college or university who has a bachelor’s, a
master’s, a Ph.D., and I’ve been able to extract five terms that he would not
have been able to be president of the university without this, wow, then, in the
spirit of looking out for the people that we’re here to serve, do you know what
these five words mean? And can you tell me, understanding now what the
definitions are of these words, perseverance, can you tell me what
perseverance means? Uh, no. Hmm. Well, that’s a tragedy, because this
person says he could not have been successful without it. So, now, let’s tell
you what perseverance means, and then let’s talk about what happens when
people have it, what happens when they don’t. Okay, so what happens, what
do you do when you have a situation like this? What do you do if you have
perseverance? So now, for a young person, this becomes one of the first
times in their life that they’ve ever understood, number one, that, man, I’m not
the first one who has some really screwed up, messed up circumstances. But
now somebody has just introduced to me some sense of hope, because
someone is telling me that not only have I been introduced to determination, I
can work hard and keep doing these things to achieve my goals, but now
someone has told me that there’s a concept, a notion out there that you can
actually push even though difficulty and adversity is pushing as hard against
you, huh? I never knew. I just thought when things were hard, hard, hard, you
just kind of stopped. But then that’s just one of those character traits. And so,
yes, character, education, leadership, service and career, that’s the part of the
CLD diet. But as things have changed in society, what we’ve had to say is,
number one, we have to make sure that this is actually in our curricula,
dispersed throughout the curricula. And then we have to make sure at every
turn when we go out to a satellite location, or when we go into an in-school
program, we’re bringing character and these character traits with us. You
know, Heraclitus said, character is destiny. I said, I believe it. In fact, I didn’t
realize that Heraclitus had said it, because I’ve said it for years, character is
destiny, character is life. And yet what I find out is, and I share with the young
people, I say, young people, this is what excellence looks like. What I’ve seen,
though, is that we have a tendency toward things that are not aligned with
excellence. And the people who are thriving and succeeding actually tend to
have an alignment with those things that result in achievement and success.
We have a truancy problem. That is, we are failing because I am making decisions that cause me to show up at places where I should not be. And then
the places where pay, in the form of education, or even financial, or moral,
wherever the pay is, the places where pay is being given, I have woeful
attendance problems. So, I’m showing where I should not be, and I have no
presence where I should be. And why does all that matter? Because it’s
typically the matters of the head and the heart that’s showing up in the hands.
If my character is what’s guiding and dictating my choices and my decisions, if
I don’t have the character in me, I’m not going to be showing at those places
that are paying. And worse, I’m going to be showing at those places that are
death-dealing.

Scarpino: Is character something people are born with, or something you can nurture?

Bland: Oh, man, I think the majority of it is nurture, which is why we have parents, and which why you have teachers, and primers. Now there’s some elements and aspects, obviously, people get through natural. Just like soil. Some soil, it’s just good. The soil didn’t have to do anything.

Scarpino: Right.

Bland: As humans, there are some things that we just have, so I mean there are
some things we have a starter kit, and then it’s really what are you doing with
the soil? What are you doing with the raw materials? And, again, that’s the
parenting, that’s the Sunday school. But I just think what happens with society
over time is that we’ve given short shrift to parenting, and we’ve given short
shrift to the faith. Because those lessons I’m talking about now, that’s been a
part of my teaching. So when you ask, can it be taught? Well, I know it can
because, number one, it was taught. And then, as I was sharing with my
father, I had the benefit of saying, this is how these things – even the words
were not used -- he was never using the word ‘perseverance’ or ‘resiliency.’
Those words have never come out of his mouth. I had the benefit of actually
seeing it lived, and then later, I said, oh, there’s a word for that, there’s a label
for what I’ve seen all my life. So it was just further affirmation. But then I
contrast -- that was one of the things -- and I would leave and volunteer at
CLD for 13 years before I even started working here. I’m 22 years old and
every Thursday I’d come over to the Center for Leadership Development
teaching this class called “Self-Discovery/Career Exploration,” a program I had
done when I was in high school. When I’d leave out the door, I said, “Pop, I’m
headed out...” he said, “You headed out to CLD?” “Yes sir.” And I would say,
and this kind of became routine, I said, “I’m going to give them some of what
you gave me.” That was just kind of one of the pat statements I would say,
“I’m going to give them some of what you gave me.”

Scarpino: I’m going to be respectful of your time, you know we got started a little late, so I don’t know when you’re going to run out of time. But I can ask you a few more questions, or we can hit pause.

Bland: Yes, sir. In fact, if it’s okay with you, I’m good until 4 o’clock. That’s 25 minutes from now.

Scarpino: Okay. I would like to switch up here a little bit and go back to some of our standard questions.

Bland: Okay.

Scarpino: You mentioned, when we were talking earlier, about reading. And, I want to ask you, when you have time to sit down and read, what do you read?

Bland: The Bible. I read the Bible every day.

Scarpino: So, you make time to do that every day.

Bland: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And then I read, as I like to say, I can get
enjoyment out of reading, but I don’t necessarily read for enjoyment. I read for
ministry. Every time I read a book, it’s about trying to learn what I can learn so
that I can edify myself and so that I have capacity to, in turn, help and edify
others. So, it’s very purposeful and intentional the reading that I do. What can
I draw off these pages that I can use to help me, but then that I can use to
actually help our team, help the young people that we’re working with, help
society? As I said earlier in talking about the character and the competence,
well, it’s that reading, so I’m trying to get better so I can actually understand
more, learn more so that I’m in a better position to be of more help.

Scarpino: In addition to the Bible, which you read every day, could you reference a couple of things that you’ve read that have helped you personally and allowed
you to help others in your position as the head of this institution?

Bland: Yeah, I read a book titled entitled, “A Time To Build” by Yuval Levin. He talks about the importance of our institutions, societal, civil and democratic
institutions, and what happens when they’re falling apart, and here’s the things
you can do to try to build or strengthen those institutions. I read a book
entitled, “How Then Shall We Live,” by Chuck Colson.

Scarpino: Colson?

Bland: Yes. I read a book entitled “Leadership BS,” and his name escapes me, the author, but he is actually a professor at Stanford.

Scarpino: I can’t think of the name either right now, but we can look it up.

Bland: Yeah.

Scarpino: Generally speaking, do you think leaders should read? I mean not all read the same things of course, but...

Bland: Absolutely.

Scarpino: Do you personally ever read about other leaders?

Bland: About other leaders?

Scarpino: Yes.

Bland: Yes.

Scarpino: For example?

Bland: Well, I read several books by Martin Luther King. I read a book entitled,
“Leadership in Turbulent Times,” and then I’ll have to say, well, number one,
she wrote, I guess, and profiled the lives of four presidents. And, by the way,
what stood out...

Scarpino: Doris...

Bland: Kearns Goodwin, yeah.

Scarpino: I’m reading that now.

Bland: Okay.

Scarpino: Did you enjoy it?

Bland: Well, not to spoil it, but I guess the one thing that stood out for me is she had highlighted these four presidents, and it seemed like to be issues of character. And strength of character, or character flaws. But saying again, character is destiny. But that was an interesting book, but again in light of the Covid and just things going on, I thought it was important to read it. But, yeah, I think reading a good read helps you understand how to most effectively carry out your work and it helps you understand, since you’re typically talking about
leading people, you just get insights on people and you get insights on how to
deal with the people you’re leading. I just think it’s so much about being
prepared for work or “for battle,” and I think reading or literacy does that.

Scarpino: Do you think that part of what a leader does is at least to figuratively engage in battle?

Bland: Yeah, I think figuratively, and I guess in a sense maybe even literally. And the reason I say that is, in an age of hypermedia, in an age where there are so
many platforms literally and so many voices, I’ve found it important to be as
quiet as possible until there’s a time and a need to speak. Because I do think
that there is so access to the power of media without the concomitant learning
and knowledge and wisdom, that a lot of people are doing damage to people,
and a lot of people are being damaged. Martin Luther King says in one of his
quotes, “When evil men plot, good men must plan; when evil men burn and
bomb, good men must bind and build.” So, I think it is a battle in a sense
because you have the philanthropists that want to help humanity, I just want to
make things better, I want to be the altruist. But then it’s important to always
be mindful, and it motivates in the work, that there is never a philanthropist
without there also being a misanthropist. “How can I help you out?” says the
philanthropist. “How can I take you out?” says the misanthropist. “How can I
enlighten you?” says the philanthropist. “How can I darken your thoughts?
says the misanthropist. And so, so much even the scripture talks about people being deceived and deluded by the ignorance of foolish men. So, I think a
battle is constantly being fought in terms of: here is truth speaking, here is
deception and lies speaking, here is wisdom speaking, here is folly speaking.
But then who has access to the mic? And oftentimes society is falling apart
because ignorance has the mic. So, I think the opportunity is that at every
turn, if there is an opportunity to speak, if there is a time when I feel like it is
the time to speak, then I want to try my best to make sure that holes are being
poked in the darkness.

Scarpino: So, an effective leader knows when to grab hold of the mic.

Bland: Yes, an effective leader, and there’s information I have, it’s researched, it’s
studied, there are sources of reference that back up – you know, you may or
may not agree, but here’s the source reference. And here is the frame of
reference around which we can analyze or make sound judgments. And I think
it’s incumbent upon people who have been asked to lead and asked to speak
to do that homework. And then also choose not to speak if you don’t feel like
you have anything to say.

Scarpino: As you look around the world that we live in today, and the world we’ve experienced in the past few years, who do you think are important leaders?

Bland: Well, without identifying anyone specifically, I just think an important leader and valuable leader is a leader who speaks truth, a leader who speaks fact, and a leader who speaks with regard to the whole. A person speaks because they have the regard for others in mind, as opposed to I speak because I am very, very self-centered, I am very, very ego-driven, I am very, very selfish,
and oftentimes because I’m so ego drive and so selfish, I’m not even trying to
take the time to find out what’s accurate, what’s truthful, I’m just trying to
espouse my opinion and my position. I think people who tend to be selfless
and who tend to be studied are people who tend to be respected. And they
are the ones who tend to actually ultimately end up drawing people to the
other side. I think that was the power of Gandhi. There was never any sense
that there was this, this is all about me. And, well, MLK. These folks, there just
wasn’t the sense that this is all about me. It was the sense, I’m doing this often
at my own expense, I’m doing this because I have regard for the public, I have
regard for the masses. I think people who have that attitude and that
disposition and that preparation tend to be leaders that I’ve respected.

Scarpino: As you think on about your career, how you got to where you are now, were there people who helped you along the way?

Bland: Well, sure.

Scarpino: I mean, anybody in particular that stands out? Or any particular occasion when somebody reached out and really made a difference?

Bland: You know, nothing about my life has been, like, big and earth shattering, like, here is this epiphany, or here’s this one-month conversation with a leader and they pulled me aside, there was never anything like that to my recollection. It’s just been more a number, and a series over time, of just kind of consistent micro-experiences where you know it was enriching in the moment, but then
as time went on and maybe in hindsight you’re seeing that this happened, and
another enriching experience with another person happen. Another
conversation happened. These things were just kind of building on each other
gradually, slowly, maybe innocuously, but then kind of in hindsight you’re just
kind of seeing that something is happening. Like, for example, I talked earlier,
I think one of the best gifts, if I can use the word, that I have been given that
I’ve blessed with is the gift of appreciation and silence. Meaning, I could never
appreciate, calculate or describe the learning that I’ve received as a result of
having the chance to serve at the Center for Leadership Development and sit
in board meetings, and just listen to and observe intelligence, listen to and
observe brilliance. So these aren’t meetings or one-on-one or coffees or
dinners. The time I have spent on the Commission for Higher Education, and
we’re traveling the state and here’s this university at IU, and here’s professors
presenting on biochemistry and applying for the opportunity to start a program,
a PhD in biochemistry. And then here’s a university in Southern Indiana you’re
visiting, and just going around the state and hearing these presentations, at
the presentations month after month, and so much of my notes in these
meetings is actually some, maybe more of, notes that would go in a journal
about what I’ve observed or what I’ve learned from this person or this
presenter. And when you sitting there thinking, like, I wouldn’t dare say a word
because I don’t want to disrupt what I’m gleaning from this observation. So,
the Chris Murphys of the world, the Theresa Lubbers, just sitting in the board
meetings and listening to guys, Jerry Semler, and Steve Stitle, and just
brilliant people, beautiful people, beautiful hearts, and you’re just sitting there,
yeah I’m trying to take in what’s going on, but underneath what’s happening
and underneath the business, there’s this education and tutorial that’s just
happening. And at the same time, I’m thinking, because I have access to this,
this is a privilege to kind of have these private tutorials at no cost. And this is
not something that everyone gets. And this is something I happen to
appreciate. Well, if you’re then getting this and you’re benefitting from this,
then it’s a reminder of your responsibility to be an excellent steward of what
you have and what you’ve been given. So, I don’t dare take this, learn this,
glean this only to then turn around and do something that sullies, or destroys,
or corrupts, or corrodes the organization, or corrodes the reputation of those
people sitting around the table that I’ve learned so much from. So, that’s been
so much about my life, being able to sit and observe, learn, take notes, and
then I think apply some of those lessons and learnings for the benefit
hopefully of other people and for my own benefit.

Scarpino: Okay, I’m going to see how we’re doing on time. You said you can go till 4:00?

Bland: Yes.

Scarpino: Okay. I’ve got one more question and it’ll take that long, and I’m going to need to set this up, so... When we met for the pre-interview and as we’ve been talking today, you talked a lot about faith. And I have some questions that I
want to talk to you about on that subject. And I am going to try to set them up
with a little bit of background. So, the people who helped me understand your
career, all of them mentioned that you’re a man of faith and that your faith
influences your leadership of the Center for Leadership Development. And
you told me you’ve been a lifelong member of Christ Temple Apostolic Faith Assembly. You mentioned, as we spoke today, Christ Temple broke ground at
its present location in 1923 in a particularly troubled decade in terms of race
relations in Indianapolis with the resurgence of the Ku Klux Klan. Indianapolis
was practicing a kind of rigid form of de facto segregation, and I noticed on the
webpage of your organization a picture of the ground-breaking that included
the presence of two white men and several African American men.

Bland: Was this our church? Are you talking about our church, or the Center for
Leadership Development?

Scarpino: Center for Leadership Development.

Bland: Okay. 

Scarpino: I went on the Christ Temple website, because everybody’s got a website now, and I looked at the names, and there’s Elder Willie Bland Sr. listed as assistant pastor. That’s your dad, right?

Bland: Uh-huh.

Scarpino: And board members included Deacon Dennis Bland, yourself. And then listed among the staff is Percy Bland Sr., facilities manager, I assume brother or uncle?

Bland: That’s my brother.

Scarpino: In other words, this is a family venture. I assume there are others of your family involved as well. So, you’ve mentioned this in and out of what we’ve
been discussing today, but can you talk to me about the importance of Christ
Temple Apostolic Church to your family?

Bland: Well, yeah. First of all, you know, there’s the Bible, and then there’s the place, there’s a congregation where you go. It’s kind of like family, they’re family and then there are different families. Christ Temple is significant for our family
because, well, for one reason, I love to hear my father tell the story about
coming from the Deep South. And maybe just the racism and the bigotry like
you just never want to experience, just the reality of the South and where he
was growing up, born in 1934, you know, just the lynchings and the brutality,
the subjugation, just ugly. But to hear him talk about coming and visiting,
coming to Indianapolis, someone invited him to church, and then going to a
church service and seeing Blacks and whites worshiping together. Again, it
takes him to tell the story, but he said he was just literally dumbfounded, like,
this cannot be. And I think it’s just one thing that if someone from the city
during that time go and they see Blacks and whites worshiping, and
everybody’s like, well, you now, that’s odd enough, or strange for those who
are not in that faith, because for a long time Christ Temple was actually
integrated. But then to actually, then, have that perspective of someone who’s
come from the Deep South, not alone come from, but living on a plantation as
a sharecropper, he and my mother, and then come and kind of see this and
just kind of like, oh, what do... and I think that’s what he said, “What are my
eyes beholding? What a curious sight, this is unbelievable.” So, I think the last
time I heard him talk about this was a couple of years ago, but he talked about just like it’s as clear as in mid 1950s. And he was just like he just could not
believe. And so that was the introduction to his faith in the church, faith in
Christ, and then as well as his faith in the leadership of that church and
everything that the Bible has messaged from that church, everything that the
Bible espoused, namely that we are people, but all this is ultimately about, if
you’re in the faith and you count the costs, and if you’re in the faith, the “cost”
is then you are no longer doing things on your terms, you’re doing things on
Christ’s terms. And one of the hallmarks of the faith is, as the Bible says, God
has made of one blood all the nations of the earth. So, while we have division,
that’s never God’s plan. And, the issue of love, well again, the church is
instrumental because all I’m doing here is actually trying to push that message
or demonstrate that love. You asked about how you take this service and
actually put it into play. Well, that’s what I’m trying to do every day. I say,
beyond the conversation, I like to say, too much talk devoid of action and you
begin to believe your talk is the action. Whereas, I remember sitting in a
community meeting and there was one in maybe my 20s or early 30s, and
there was another town hall meeting where we’re going to go and people are
going to talk about problems, all the violence, and what are the solutions. And
I remember thinking before I went, you know, I’ve been to enough of these, I
kind of know how they go. But let me see, maybe this will be different, there
will be some true solutions, more than just kind of haranguing and fighting and
screaming and arguing. But, hey, maybe a lot of the same, but let me go see
because maybe something will change. But I remember going to that meeting,
it was the exact same as that to which I had become accustomed. And I just
remember at that meeting kind of having this silent protest. And the silent
protest was, and I sat and listened to the meeting, I said I’m going to stand up
and leave in the middle of this whole conversation. That was my silent protest.
But what I said was, I’m going to stand up and leave and then my commitment
is actually going out and trying to actually do something about what I see as
concerning. I want to be doing something. So, when we come to the Center
for Leadership Development, what we’re doing, as we said, I know the
problems, I’m even interested in researching and looking at and studying the
causes that then appear as symptoms. Or, I see symptoms, but symptoms
tend to indicate there’s something going on underneath. Here are the causes.
Well, I want to understand the problems as it pertains to Black youth. I want to
understand what’s causing it, because of the Center for Leadership
Development, we want to be north of the problem. To my silent protest, I want
to actually find out what the problem, what the underlying causes are so we
can begin to implement answers and solutions. And so that’s why you have
now this conversation around establishing satellite locations in our high-crime
areas. That’s why we’re talking about putting programming, taking the
programming directly into schools. So, it’s really trying to take the teachings of
the faith and come out and actually live them out, but it’s also trying to take
these principles, which, by the way, happen to be God-ordained principles,
character, education, leadership, service and career, those are God
inventions.

Scarpino: But what you’re doing is taking the message to where the people are, rather than expecting them to come here.

Bland: Right. And actually both, come here or go there, but you have the choice. But we believe that what’s missing and what young people need is an education
on how life works. And we’ve said that if you can actually develop for each of
these five areas, if you can step in, dig deep, climb up, then you begin to
stand out. For character, and we talk about character, we want you to actually
commit to learning character. Step in, dig deep, climb up, and as you begin to
climb up or getting better, learning more skills, getting more understanding,
you begin to stand out, or you become outstanding. And we say if we can get
to commit to stepping in, digging deep, climbing up, and then beginning to
stand out in all five of those pillars – character, education, leadership, service
and career – then they become some of the most powerfully-developed and
cultivated young people in the world. So, talking about kind of bringing fullcircle this whole notion of leading or introducing. Then, now here’s a young
person who has character, now this is what I introduced, this is what I bring.
Now I have education as a commitment, and as a value. And now I’m bringing
education and performance versus mediocrity and not going to school. So
here are these, we’re trying to have them make, as I like to say, glorious
introductions. In fact, our tagline is: cultivating character, empowering youth,
enriching community. So the whole messaging is, we cultivate, we start with
character, we instill these values. As young people develop these values in
these areas and develop skills in these areas, they begin to enrich the places
where they show up. And now the place that you show up has now become
improved or enriched because of your presence. And we say that’s one of the
hallmarks of the fruit of leadership, is the place where I have presence, and
does the place where I have presence, has it become stronger or better or
improved because I’ve shown up? And we say, well, if you show up with these
five principles in the place where you show up, they will be improved. And so
now, Harvard says, can you come to my campus? An employer says, would
you come and be one of our interns? Or they want your presence, and they
want your presence because you have these endowments.

Scarpino: Is part of the ability to do what you’ve just sketched out also an ability to somehow deal with peer pressure among the people that you’re trying to
reach?

Bland: You said, is that a part of what we...

Scarpino: Do you find yourself running up against peer pressure among the youth that you’re trying to reach? I mean, there must be a reservoir of feeling among some of those youth that this is not the message they want to hear. They
maybe want to go a different way, maybe they do want to sell drugs or do all
these other bad things. But these youth that you’re trying to reach live in that
culture, so do you have to somehow figure out a way to overcome the peer
pressure of their own fellows in order to reach them?

Bland: Yeah, and that’s what I talked about to your point about, you know,
figuratively, are you fighting the battle? Well, that’s a part of it. That’s a part of
that quote that I mentioned from Martin Luther King, when evil men plot, good
men must plan. And that’s why I mentioned the whole idea of the
philanthropists and misanthropists. So we aren’t operating under any delusion
that these challenges aren’t out there. But that’s all the more reason why
we’re actually trying to get access to young people, so we can share with
them what we have. Now, for a number of young people, once they come in
it’s not like these are great revelations, or it’s something, I’m going to change my behavior overnight because of this program you offer. That’s not
happening in all the cases. But what I can also share in my experience, which
encourages us, is that a number of young people are sitting there listening
and it’s like, I just didn’t know. No one has ever said this to me before. I never
learned like this before. No one has ever talked to me. I heard the word
character, but no one has ever defined it for me or talked to me how it works
or how it operates and how it impacts our decisions and the consequences of
it. So, even though I’ve decided to do it, no one has actually kind of taken the
analysis further, saying then this is what happens and have you see this
happen? Oh, yeah, I can relate... So it’s people talking about it, but I haven’t
had that experience of actually seeing how it’s unfolded or developed in an
experiential youth program. So, we see a number of young people just kind of
like, oh, wow... again, not everybody, but you could see that a number of
young people were just like, this is so enlightening. So we do this assessment,
you see young people, you’ll see someone write, “Well I’m actually starting to
study now. I’m starting to take my courses seriously.” I may have shared this
with you before, but those are the types of things that have us saying, what we
are, this is the 44th year and we’re always try to learn what the experts are
saying, but in the main, I say one of the things that 44 years of doing this has
done for us is that we’re not necessarily trying to figure out what works. We’ve
been there. We’ve kind of done the study. We’ve had the several experiences
with the young people. What we’re trying to do at this point is implement and
outspread what we know works.

Scarpino: We’ve been actually talking for quite a bit for over two hours, and I think that’s a good place to hit stop, so, I’m going to perform...

(END RECORDING)

Scarpino: Well, nice to see you again, Mr. Bland. I’m looking forward to this. Today is October 21, 2021. My name is Philip Scarpino, Professor of History at IUPUI and Director of Oral History for the Tobias Center for Leadership Excellence, also at IUPUI. I’m interviewing Mr. Dennis Bland at the headquarters of the Center for Leadership Development located at 2425 Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Street, Indianapolis. This is the second recording session with Dennis Bland.  This interview is sponsored and supported by the Tobias Center for Leadership Excellence on the IUPUI campus. So, as I said when the recorder was off, I’m going to ask your permission to record this interview, to have the recording transcribed, to deposit the recording and the transcription with the Tobias Center and the IUPUI Special Collections and Archives where they can be used by patrons and where they may be posted all or in part to those organizations’ websites. Can I have your permission to do those things? 

Bland: Yes, sir. 

Scarpino: Thank you very much.  

Bland: You’re welcome. 

Scarpino: Again, at the end of the last session, we were talking about your lifelong membership in Christ Temple Apostolic Faith Assembly. I want today’s session at the point in your career in 2000, when you decided to leave employment in state government. And then we’re just going to talk about the place that we’re sitting in for the rest of our time together. But in 2000, if I got the date right, you left the job in state government to become president of the Center for Leadership Development. So, could you briefly say what you did in state government? What were your job responsibilities? 

Bland: Sure. I worked for the Indiana Department of Insurance and had a two-fold responsibility in a role as a staff attorney with the Department of Insurance. I worked in medical malpractice litigation, where we defended what was called a Patient Compensation Fund. So, whenever there was malpractice suit brought in the State of Indiana, and there was success found by the plaintiff, there was a statute that said the healthcare provider only had to pay up to a certain cap. And then beyond that cap, any additional amount would come out of the Patient Compensation Fund that was funded by healthcare providers. Well, we defended that compensation fund. And so, I did that type of medical defense work. And then the other part of my responsibility was doing insurance regulatory affairs. So, we essentially served as a kind of administrative prosecutorial arm for state government in situations where there were allegations of insurance fraud, insurance agencies or agents making bogus insurance policies, taking money from insureds. So, we represented the Department of Insurance when those types of matters came up before the Department of Insurance. 

Scarpino: Did that ever mean that you were arguing cases in court on these matters? 

Bland: No, those cases were heard before an administrative law judge in the State of Indiana, not in the courts.  

Scarpino: Did you argue cases before the administrative law judge? 

Bland: Oh, sure.  

Scarpino: Yeah. Okay. Alright, so now let’s talk about this place that we’re sitting in here, the Center for Leadership Development, and you replaced as president a person who had an established reputation, S. Henry Bundles, Jr., the founding president of the Center for Leadership Development. I want to ask you a couple of questions about that. One is, can you talk a little bit about the accomplishments and reputation of Henry Bundles, Jr.? Who was this man you replaced? 

Bland: Henry Bundles, Jr. was a gentleman I came to know through my involvement in the Center for Leadership Development. He was regarded as a respected business leader, a savvy and successful business entrepreneur. And, as he told me the story once, the story of how he moved from entrepreneurship to the Center for Leadership Development, I recall him telling the story of his wife having passed and he had three children and it was a tough time in his life. And he said that as a result of her passing, there was a time for self-reflection, and he decided that, in his words, “It’s time for me to stop chasing dollars, and it’s time for me to start helping somebody.” And so then that’s what got him involved in the work at the Center for Leadership Development.  

Scarpino: He came here after it was already founded, right? 

Bland: Well, they started the organization. He was the founding president. He was the first president. 

Scarpino: You said that he was a savvy business person. What did he do? What kind of business was he in before he came here? 

 Bland: Well, he was in healthcare products, or hair care products. He worked at the Madam C.J. Walker Company. I think he actually had some involvement - they had some involvement in starting a bank that was owned by African Americans, called Midwest Bank.  

Scarpino: Do you happen to know where that bank was located? 

Bland: I want to say that it was at the corner of 29th or 30th, maybe 29th and Meridian Street. 

Scarpino: Okay. So, you replaced him as president of the Center for Leadership Development, and we’re going to talk about why you might want to do that in a minute. But when you looked at the organization as the incoming president, what did you see as its strengths? What was it doing well? 

Bland: The organization was very systematic, very process-driven, very organized and very professional niche of youth development programming.  

Scarpino: Where were they located at that time? Where in town? 

Bland: In 2000, they had just moved to a location at 3435, or excuse me, 3536 Washington Boulevard, so 35th hundred block of Washington Boulevard.  

Scarpino: That would be the near northside then. 

Bland: Near northside, just a few blocks from 38th Street. 

Scarpino: Okay. In 2000 you were not a new face at the Center. You’d been volunteering your time there, as we discussed last time. What kinds of things had you been doing at the Center that obviously called your attention to the board when they were looking for a new director? 

Bland: Well, I was a volunteer. I started out volunteering, learning to serve as an instructor. We call them facilitators at the Center for Leadership Development. I began serving as a facilitator in the Self Discovery Program. We were essentially learning the curricula and then sharing this curricula-based experience with the students. And then, we started a program called Project MR. MR is an acronym for male responsibility. So, it was a thought on the part of the brain trust at CLD, Henry Bundles and Helen Baker, to create a program focused on African American males. And then they were concerned, for a couple of reasons they were concerned about the teen pregnancies. And, as I recall them stating, there was so much talk about females getting pregnant and, in their minds, well, it takes two to tango, but who’s talking about the responsibility of the males and the role males play? So, that’s what inspired them to create a program. And then there was also the thought that here are students out in the community, and they could really use some cultivation and development, mentoring and guidance. We would love to have them in the Self Discovery Program, but our concern is that they are too rough around the edges. There needs to be some initial cultivation and readiness for the Self Discovery Program. So then the Project MR Program could also serve that role.  

Scarpino: Helen Bailey... 

Bland: Baker... 

Scarpino: Baker, I’m sorry. Could you talk a little bit about who she was and the role she played in the early years at the Center? 

Bland: Henry Bundles was the brains of the business, and Helen Baker was the brains of the programming. So, they had one who was the rainmaker, who was trying to keep the organization afloat, and that was Henry Bundles. And then Helen Baker was the person who was responsible for the description I shared earlier regarding the programming. Here’s a person who was very systematic, very process driven, method, standard operating procedures, here’s a program so let’s have a training on the program. Let’s have a training on our orientations. All the people who are going to instruct in the programs, let’s have a one-day training session on Saturday from 8 to 4 o’clock, 8 to 4:30. And she was an educator by training, and so Helen Baker was an exceptional educator, and she was excellent in creating and delivering programmatic experiences that would translate into learning and enrichment and development for Black youth.  

Scarpino: Do you know anything about her background? Where she was from?  

Bland: Well, she was from Indianapolis. She attended Crispus Attucks. And she went to IU. She was a principal - I think at one point she was a principal or assistant principal in Washington Township. Again, she had a friendship with Henry Bundles, and he persuaded her to come and work at the Center for Leadership Development. So, she left her principalship job at Greenbriar Elementary. 

Scarpino: He must have been pretty persuasive.  

Bland: Yeah, and one thing for sure, when you look at the work that she provided, you look at the quality of the work, you look at the – as I think about the number of evenings and weekends where I would come and volunteer, and to see how much time she was investing, it was obvious that this was more than a job for her. It was clear that she was totally committed. She was sold, and she was a consummate professional. It was clear that she had made up her mind that she was going to bring that consummate commitment and professionalism over to the Center for Leadership Development and the nonprofit work.  

Scarpino: For somebody who would listen to this recording or read the transcript at some point in the future, would it be possible to conclude that both Henry Bundles and Helen Baker were equally responsible for this organization that exists today? Different responsibilities, but significant input into the birth and development of this organization? 

Bland: Yeah, I think in fairness, yes, even though people could make arguments for one or the other. And I would say, yes, but then I would just give this caveat. Ultimately, they were both great leaders. Now, you can raise money, but if you’re program is not quality then the funding is not going to continue. And you can have quality programming, and now you may not get the funding, but that doesn’t change the quality of programming. You can bring somebody else in and they can get the funding, but the quality program is the quality programming. I think because your mission is helping Black youth become professional business and community leaders, then everything related to the substance of that work is tied to the programmatic experiences. And so, from that standpoint, you really appreciated Helen Baker’s work because you knew it was the programming that was leading the impact. And then at the same time, you knew that Henry Bundles was out raising the money that enabled them to implement these programs and experiences that they could have impact in people’s lives.  

Scarpino: I just thought of this while you were talking, but impact is one of the words that we use when we talk about leaders and whether they’re good at what they do. You are a leader, and you are also the head of this organization. In your professional life, how do you assess impact? How do you make up your mind whether a program or an organization is having impact? Positive impact, let’s qualify that. 

Bland: Sure. I don’t know if I stated it the last time we talked, but personally and organizationally, without using the word leadership, I would always say I want to make sure that I’m coming to work each day trying to get better in character, in competence, or ability and knowledge of my work, in stewardship, in accountability, and in result. Can I build my character, honesty, integrity, selflessness, humility? I want to grow in these endowments, and I want to grow maybe in the degree of these endowments. So I’m not content in being a person who has discipline, but can I take that discipline from the three to a five, or a five to a seven? Can I actually get degrees in character? Can I grow in competence? Again, knowledge in degrees? Can I grow in stewardship, and just ever conscious of contributors’ investments, individuals’ contributions and how do we steward, take care of the baby? Can we be accountable and responsible? Let me own that. This is what I’m responsible for doing. And let me do what I’m responsible for doing. And then, as I say, the last is the result. And I feel like if there is character, competence, stewardship, and accountability, then that will actually lead to the result and lead to the outcomes and lead to the impact you want, which is why we want to be quality in those four other areas because it will lead to result. In terms of our program, we just always want to know -- and I have a three-part analysis for the programming that we offer that come online, and then we want to create metrics to see how we’re doing in the programming that we develop as a result of that three-part analysis. But question number one in the analysis is, given our mission, what do we want young people to be? So, what’s our North Star? Well, the mission is we want young people to become professional business and community leaders. That’s in our mission statement. So, question number one in the analysis, what do we want young people to be? What do we want the result to be (inaudible) as a result of the work we do? Question number two, where are they currently academically, socially, culturally, familially, holistically, anything that can impact the person’s ability to move and determines whether or not a person elevates or stays, whether or not there’s growth and whether there’s inertia. We want to know all of those things. So, where are they currently? And then question number three in the analysis, given where we want people to be, and then given where they are currently, what is the most meaningful relevant programmatic intervention and design that we can offer that meets young people where they are to help move them to where we want them to be? So, taking that three-part analysis, then we’re going to say, and then, are you impactful in that area? Well, let’s create benchmarks. Let’s create a logic model so that we can actually program or outline what our recipe is for success. And then let’s see whether or not this recipe works. So, the logic model says we have short, intermediate and long-term benchmarks. And then how are the young people doing based upon assessments, pre-assessments, post-program assessments, end-of-session assessments, do we see any movement? So, for example, we have a benchmark that asks if young people are actually learning or understanding and grasping these five principles for success. And if young people, through our assess, through our program development, through our pre- and post-, if we are seeing through the comments and through the feedback that there is growth and development, well, that’s how we’re measuring impact, because those are our values. So, we’re wanting young people to adopt these values. We’re asking whether or not young people are studying the amount of time we want them to study. Are they reading, through the influence of our program, reading more than they would? Are young people going to school at a very high rate? So, we measure attendance rate. We’re measuring impact. Hey, if students have low attendance rates, and we know that attendance is vital to academic success, then CLD wants to be one of those influencers that’s encouraging students to attend school more. And, so that’s one of our benchmarks. That’s how we’re measuring impact. And then we’re measuring impact by whether or not students are being suspended or expelled. So, we have what is called a Code for Excellence, 2-15-1770. Those are actually four of our benchmarks. Are you studying at least two hours a day? Are you reading at least 15 minutes a day? We want to build literacy. So many young people are illiterate, alliterate, sub-literate. So, we want you to read at least 15 minutes a day. We want you to attend school at least at least 177 out of the state’s 180-day prescribed school calendar. And then, during that 180-day school year, do you have zero suspensions or expulsions? And, then, we’re measuring impact by whether or not students are graduating from high school. Are you actually going or attending some institution of post-secondary education learning? I always like to say, and you often hear people say college is not for everybody, and I’ll say, yes, but learning is for everybody. Skilling-up is for everybody. Now whether you do that in the military, whether you do it in a four-year experience or two-year experience, a certification program, but are you enrolling in that post-secondary education experience? Are you actually navigating and moving or persisting successfully through from day-to-day, week-to-week, semester to semester, are you persisting? And are you earning your degree or credential or certification? Are you finishing what you started? And then are you gainfully employed? Those are some of our -- that’s how we measure impact.  

Scarpino: Do the students you work with know that you expect them to adhere to really high standards? 

Bland: Oh, sure, that’s part of the orientation. That’s part of initiating young people into the experience. 

Scarpino: We talked about the fact that you had been employed by state government, and that you accepted the position as president of Center for Leadership Development. Why did you decide to do that? I’m guessing that, along with that must have come income reduction, among other things, but why did you decide to make that move? 

Bland: Two reasons. I think in spending all the time with the young people, I was slowly developing an interest, a care, a compassion, a concern, and deeper and deeper concern. And, with that care and concern, compassion, there was also growing I think a sense that I could help do something about it. So, I think that caring, that concern, and feeling like I could do something about it or at least having the heart to want to try to do something about it is what persuaded me to leave the practice of law. But I think, more fundamentally, it was a faith move. I feel like I was being led and called by God to actually go and do the work. And I said I want to become, well, I want to become an advocate for young people. So, here’s the law, but now I’m going to change my client and now I’m going to become an advocate, or of counsel, to people who need counsel. Maybe can’t afford counsel, but that doesn’t change the need. And I think there needs to be some counsel in some of the areas, not necessarily as it pertains to law, but as it pertains to life and success. And it seems like that was the gap that I saw with so many young people, and there was a care and a love for the young people, and there was a desire to see if I could come along and help fill those gaps so that young people can realize their God-given potential.  

Scarpino: When you became president, 2000, the Center for Leadership Development, I mean I’m guessing from the time that I’ve talked to you that you reflected on this a great deal before you decided to do it. So, what did you hope you could accomplish, just say, in your first five years? 

Bland: Well, I remember not long after – you’re right, I had given it a lot of thought and a lot of contemplation and a lot of prayer. Some of the stories about that, that confirmed my decision to move are just really, even as I look at it 20 years later, 21 years later, are still really humbling, some of the things that happened that made me say, this is confirmation that I am being called to do this work. But, when I started, I remember being at a board meeting and I shared with the board, I said I often hear people saying, well, if I can just reach one it would be fine, if we can just reach one it will have been worth the while. But even as a 35-year-old switching over and starting to do this work, and I shared with the board, I said, I didn’t leave the practice of law and come to make this enormous shift just to come over and reach one. I want to reach thousands. And I remember saying, if we end up reaching one I’m going to go to the one who was successful, who has been impacted by the Center for Leadership Development, I’m going to congratulate that one person on their success, and then I’m going to submit my resignation. So, I think, while there was not a number, it was just a feeling and a conviction that the need was too great to be thinking small. And I just thought, man, there’s too much compassion, there’s too much conviction, there’s too much love for young people, there’s too much God to be content with a few. So, what did I hope to establish? I just think, number one, there was a vision of creating, helping society, helping humanity by trying to establish one of the most preeminent youth development programs in the nation dedicated to helping Black youth actualize their potential. Can you create a youth development program that’s without peer that is really effective and proficient in driving change, and again, helping young people succeed? What I hoped to accomplish and wanted in terms of vision, I just wanted to provide answers and solutions where there had been disappointment, complaint, frustration. I came along to CLD saying, well, I want to be north of the problem. I heard for years about the problem about community consciousness and concern about the crime, the violence, and yes, I’m aware of the conversations, I’m aware about the concerns, I’m aware of the problems. I’m even so concerned about the problem that I’m interested in studying the causation that’s birthing the problem. But ultimately, I want to understand the problem. I want to understand the causation so that we can put out the answers and solutions to those problems given those underlying causes, and hence, north of the problem. I want to be answers-focused, solutions-focused. And then in terms of change, they said, well, then how do we do that? So, I would say that the most maybe unheralded but seismic change or addition that I made when I started at the Center for Leadership Development was, I said that we will become a values-based organization. And it really was nothing more than actually looking at my own experiences at CLD as a participant and as a volunteer, and then looking at everything that the organization was doing and actually saying, can you take what the organization is doing and make it digestible? So that somebody can actually sit there and a baby could eat it. 

Scarpino: I already learned that you don’t like to talk about yourself, but I’m going to ask you to do that for a minute. Do you think that one of your strengths here as the leader of this organization is the ability to convey complicated ideas and ask people to do a lot in a readily digestible form? And I’m looking at one of your brochures that’s behind you that says, cultivating character, empowering youth, enriching community. It’s there in six words. Is that one of the gifts that you bring to what you do?  

Bland: I don’t know if it’s a gift. I don’t know if I ever thought of that as a gift. I have thought that, number one, I’ve thought of myself as being simple, very pragmatic. And I’ve thought about obviously the people whom we serve, that at our core we don’t serve adult professionals, we serve young people. So, that in and of itself has said to me that whatever we do, it has to be substantive, it has to be impactful, but it has to be in a way, or in a manner and in a language that’s really relatable and really understandable.  

Scarpino: You were talking a few minutes ago about your decision to leave state government and come over here to this organization, and you said that since that, you had some experiences that were humbling and gave confirmation that you’d done the right thing. Can you talk about at least one of those experiences that was both humbling and you’ve looked at that experience and said, I did the right thing, this was good?  

Bland: Sure. I applied for the position and, in fact I was a member of the board at that time. I started volunteering and then Project MR came along and I started facilitating, and then I was asked to join the board of directors. So I had become really involved at CLD. When the time this position came open, it was actually a board member who was encouraging me. I was actually on the selection committee, but I had no interest in working at CLD, you know, I’m practicing law. But I obviously cared about the mission and was involved as a board member, as a facilitator, etc. Well, there was a board member who was also on the selection committee, and she was encouraging me, but I was, like, no thank, no thank you, no thank you. This probably went on for several months until I finally decided to apply. She said, well, you know, you’ve been on the board, you’re a participant, you’ve volunteered all these years, it just seems like you’re a natural for this. So, I ended up applying. Of course, I recused myself from the selection committee. When I applied, there was a while for the board to actually make a decision or to announce whom they had selected. Well, I was downtown, I was in the Hyatt, coming back from lunch and I ran into the board chair. And, he said, “You have a minute?” And so, we stepped into McDonald’s right there in the Hyatt. He said, “I know it’s been a while, but we’ve just been sorting things out. But, the short of it is, I want to let you know that we appreciate your candidacy but we did not select you for the position.” And he told me who they had selected, I said, “Oh my goodness, wow, they applied for that role? Man, I’m impressed. Hey, okay, thank you.” And I just kind of walked back to the office, I’m just thinking, okay, it’s like... And then fast forward, and I’m a member of the board, but a week goes by, another week goes by, and maybe several weeks, and I’m curious, like, okay, well I know who’s been selected, but why hasn’t the board been notified? Why haven’t they announced to the board who the person is we’ve selected? There was just no announcement. Let’s say, after that conversation there was probably a month that went by. And I came to the office, and I played the voicemail like I typically do every morning. Played the voicemail, and there was a call from the board chair, the guy who had told me they selected someone else. And the message goes something like, “Hey, Dennis, I don’t know what’s going on. We had a candidate, as I shared with you. Everything was worked out in terms of package and we were going forward and then, all of a sudden, the person said they’re not interested. And I talked to them about it, and after talking to them, still not clear as to why they’re not interested in doing it. But, nevertheless, I’m calling to extend the offer to you if you’re still interested.” So, I’m sure I listened to that recording 10, or 15, or 20 times. I mean, just like, this is so unbelievable. I had had a three-way call with my sisters the day before it was time to apply for the position. I said, hey, this is the deadline, this is the date, it has to be due in by tomorrow and I still don’t know whether or not I want to apply. I haven’t felt led by the Lord to ask or inquire. I’ve been praying. And, yes, the board member, Mildred Ball, she’s been asking me, that’s why I finally decided to do it anyway, because she just seemed to be so persistent that this job is for you. But I’m know I’ve been mentioning it, I’m not going to mention it anymore. But I’m sitting there talking to my sisters and like, “What do I do?” And one of my sisters said, “Apply. If it’s the deadline, apply. And then, if they turn you down, then that’s God’s will.” And I thought, hey, light bulb. I’m like, that’s clever... 

Scarpino: That’s why God made sisters. 

Bland: Yeah. And she said, “If they say no, then there’s your answer. If they say, then there you go.” Well, then, fast forward a few weeks, I interviewed, or a few months, and then I ran into Steve Stitle, and he says no. I said, oh. So fast forward another month, six weeks, I go into my office, I play the voicemail, and I’m sitting there thinking, listening, like, oh my goodness. And I played it 15, 20 times, like this is unbelievable. But then, my sister’s words came back to me when he said no in the Hyatt Regency McDonald’s, and then that voicemail message. Let’s fast forward and, now, I have to decide whether or not I’m going to accept. I talked to Steve, and I said, “Well, you know, can I have time to think about it, like, a week or whatever?” So, once again, here’s the day I’m supposed to tell Steve, and I’m just really not sure. That morning I get up, I read my Bible, and I just opened up the book of the Bible, and I looked down and there’s a scripture that says, “Therefore now go and lead the people.” “Therefore, now go lead the people in the place that I have directed thee.” And I’m looking, I said, man, it was one of those, and you know it’s just me but you kind of looking around, like, is this... is this... what’s going on? Is this, is this me? Is this for me? Is this real? Am I making this...? So, actually in my Bible to this day, in the margin of that scripture, there’s CLD, and I have the date, 3/11/20. So, whatever it is or whatever it isn’t, it made such an impression on me that I actually… so, literally I can share with you my Bible and you would actually see that in the margin. That’s how much of an impression it was. Again, you know, people make up things, the Lord told... well, so, it was the day I was supposed to just let Steve know. And, so I’m in the shower, still thinking like, oh, man, what’s going on? This is kind of overwhelming. So, I was in the shower and I remember saying, “Now if this is for me, why was this found in the book of Exodus?” And the thought came back to me, “Because it’s time to go.” So then that day, that morning I walked into the commissioner’s office and let her know that I was resigning and I was going to take the position in youth development work. And then the last thing I’ll share is, now fast forward, I called Steve Stitle, and I told him I accept the position. We agreed for me to come down to his office. Then he was the president of PNC Bank here in Indy, chairing our board. So, we agreed that I’d come down and we’d kind of just talk about the position, talk about terms, compensation, etc. So, I went to Steve’s office. And then after we talked about the position, the terms, etc., he says, “Now, what I’ll do is I’ll put all this in writing. I’ll mail it to you. And if you have any change or modifications, let me know.” I said, “Okay.” He said, “What’s your address?” And I gave him my address, and then he says, “You want to hear an interesting story?” “Okay, sure, why not?” He says, “I used to live in that house.” Like I’m looking at you now, I said, “What did you say?” He said, “I used to live in that house.” So, again, I’m thinking, well, I used to live in a house that had a similar address, and he said, “I used to live in that house.” So, he starts describing the house where I live. You come into the front doorway, there’s a dining room to the left. “Yeah, yep.” ... “Patio on the back, a cement patio.” “Yep, yep, my father laid that patio.” “You have a long hallway in the basement. Yep, me and my friends used to play in...” He’s describing… he used to live in the house that I was living. So, these were some of the, oh, wow, like, what are the odds? So, those were some of the things that were happing, like even for a person who is a little slow, it takes me a little while. And I just wanted to make sure my signals are straight, even for me, I said, “Okay, God, I got it. I got it.”  

Scarpino: That’s amazing. So, when you started as president of the Center, what did you hope you would be able to accomplish? You must have had to go before the board and they asked you that question. But I mean, it was obviously an existing organization, and beyond what they were already doing, what did you hope you could accomplish? 

Bland: Well, based upon my own experiences, my father’s and mother’s experiences being sharecroppers -- I think might have shared, by the time I was in 6th or 7th grade I had more education than my mother and father combined. Those experiences at the Center for Leadership Development, high school, DePauw education experience, law school experience, experience at the Center for Leadership Development facilitating these classes, board member experiences, just bringing all those facts and experiences to bear, and again trying to be answers and solutions-focused, trying to understand the problem, trying to understand causation, trying to understand what then could be answers and solutions based upon what I see as problems and underlying causes that’s creating or leading to the problems, or as I like to say, what’s going up underneath the earth that’s been showing itself in terms of symptoms or outcomes above the earth, so, then, what I hope to accomplish? All that led to me saying that we should have a values-based program model, and that’s what I was pointing to earlier. Can we actually get young people to develop a value set, and develop the values in five areas? And we’ll call these areas CLD Principles for Success. If you want to be successful, then let’s actually start at the rooted level of a value system. As I always like to say, we as humans tend to live a value system. And I understand a value system to be those areas where you invest your most precious resources. It’s important enough, it’s prioritized enough so that it gets your time, your energy, your emotions, your focus, your dollars obviously. Your mouth talks about it. Your hands make it happen. Your feet run to the direction of it, and in the direction of it. Well, if that’s how humans tend to operate in values, or where values are concerned, what would happen if you could get thousands of Black youth to adopt a value system that consisted of character, education, leadership, service and career? What would happen if we could persuade and encourage and challenge and nurture young people in the values of character development, educational excellence, leadership effectiveness, community service, and career achievement? Like that’s our wheelhouse, that’s our pentagon of power. Can we become “narrow minded, narrow focused,” and then for each of these values can we get young people to develop a consciousness and actually decide to commit to growing in that value? Can I get you to step in, dig deep, climb up, or improve in those daily? And by stepping in, committing, digging deep, climbing up until you begin to stand out or become outstanding. So, we want to develop a value system around which young people can familiarize themselves. And then can we go about developing, in terms of accomplishment with these principles for success as the bedrock driver of what we’re trying to accomplish, that’s our end goal – that young people are exceptional and outstanding in character, education and leadership service, and career, not one or the other. Then they become some of those most dynamically-empowered young people in the world. So, with those as the foundation, our aspiration then is to create as much quality, impactful programming as we possibly can that serves as a conduit for nurturing and teaching young people in these values. So, we want to build on what Helen Baker and Henry Bundles have done by saying this is outstanding, but there’s not enough programming, there’s not enough dosage. So, we see the program for 10th through12th graders. We see the program for 7th through 9th grade males, or 7th through 10th-grade males. Can we get program dosage for females? Can we get program dosage for 6th graders? Can we get program dosage for 4th graders? So, what do we hope to accomplish? We want to have this values-based model that then has these programs that serve as conduits for teaching and nurturing young people in these values. So, then, can we then develop programming so that we can impact more young people through these programs, impact them at different age groups, earlier age groups, so we’re having this values-based influence earlier, not wait until you’re 16 years old. What about when you 10 years old? So... 

Scarpino: What you were trying to do is to change the way young people saw themselves, the way they understood themselves.  

Bland: I wanted to change the way they saw themselves, and wanted to change the way they understood or viewed life. And I wanted to change the way they perceived, or help them understand how you may perceive and frame success and achievement.  

Scarpino: You grew up in Indianapolis. You went to Indianapolis Public Schools, so you knew the system. How is what you do, or what this organization does, different from what schools do? I mean, I know you’re not teaching math and so on, but in terms of shaping the individual. 

Bland: I think the school’s primary responsibility is to teach curricula and instruction. And in doing that you’re managing, through interaction with students, through interaction with teachers, you’re hoping to then help the person mature, help the person grow. It happens as a byproduct of your provided instruction. At the Center for Leadership Development, our focal point is the development of the person. And so, the character, education, leadership, service and career, saying this is how intentional we are about developing the person. So, the person is the focal point, not the education. But if we can develop the person in such a way, in such an intentional way, then one of the benefits of developing the person is that they are better equipped and better positioned to actually approach an education and learning because we have helped them understand the value of their lives. And it’s not to say young people don’t understand, but it’s reinforcing the value or helping people understand. Maybe I know the value, but I don’t understand the gravity or the depth of the value. So, if I am understanding the value of life, then I begin to want to understand more clearly how I actually secure and how I protect and how I safeguard life. And humanity has proven through history that one of the best ways to protect and safeguard life is to educate. And then those people who value life, one of the best things you want to do for a protected life or a value life, to secure and protect it you want to educate it, but you also want to understand how to lead life. Because we don’t want people being led into ditches. We want people to know how to drive, so that the people who are occupants in the car are actually in a safe route, they’re having a safe journey and they get to their destination. Well, that’s a form of leadership. So, if you really care about life, learn how to drive. Or if you care about your life and the life of others, learn how to drive, learn how to lead. So, for each of these principles, you’re actually seeing what it comes down to is that there’s a value around life, there’s a value around purpose, community service, I care about my life but I also care about the life of others. And then career is just basically talking about the purposefulness of life. There’s purpose. There’s meaning. There’s intentionality. That’s why I’m on this earth. Career comes from the Latin carri or carrus, which means vehicle or road. So, for all these roads that are out there, what road are you going to choose, Dennis, that gives you the greater sense of fulfilment, where you feel like you have meaning, where you feel like you can make a difference that gives you satisfaction? Well, my road is to become a youth development worker. And, likewise, young people, what road are you going to choose? So all these, in my understanding, essentially says we value your life so much, we want you to value your life so much, and then these pillars, or these principles are ways in which we can go about really securing and strengthening and sublimating our lives, and in turn learning how to enrich and better the life of others. So, to your point about our tagline, our tagline is cultivating character, empowering youth, and enriching community. And the messaging of that is, CLD, the hallmark of our youth development model, is that we want to build character. We want to build you up in these values. And as you grow in character and in these values, then you become empowered, you’re equipped to be, you’re equipped to do. And the more empowerment you have, because you have been endowed with this values-based model, because you have this empowerment, now you enrich the places where you show up. Your presence has power, and hence, cultivating character, empowering youth, enriching community. Now your presence becomes meaningful because of these endowments, because of this empowerment, because of this character, and now people actually want you, they want your presence.  

Scarpino: Part of what you’re doing is encouraging young people to believe in themselves. Is that hard to do? 

Bland: Believe in yourself and find a path and then pursue it. And I think it’s hard to do. It’s a challenge to do, and I think it becomes more of a challenge because you have this thing called culture and society and environment.  

Scarpino: That’s where I was going with that, yes. You’re working against, in some ways, parts of culture and society. 

Bland: Absolutely. Absolutely. Because you’re encouraging people to not do what society’s encouraging them to do. You’re encouraging young people to do what often society is encouraging them not to do. I always talk about the duel, the war between the philanthropists and the misanthropists. The philanthropist says, “I want to help people succeed.” The misanthropist says, “I want to help people fail.” The philanthropist says, “I want to help you out.” The misanthropist says, “I want to take you out.” And so, I understand that as we’re over at the Center for Leadership Development talking about character and education and morals and discipline and perseverance and abstain from sex, that there is a message and culture that says, don’t go to school, shun the system, become disruptive, don’t do your work, drink, smoke, get high, all those things that just tears your life apart. So, I understand as we talk about these things which we think elevate life, at the same time social media and TV programs, they’re just being bombarded with messages that are just careless. Whenever you get through with it, they’re trauma makers. They’re wound makers.  

Scarpino: Part of what you do is encourage young people to develop self-discipline, sense of purpose? 

Bland: All those things that make for strong character, because I think of character, and that’s why it’s principle number one, character is essentially, we talk about computer coding, well this computer’s going to do what it’s coded to do. It’s that character or endowments of the heart and the hands, or character or endowments of the head and the heart that come out in the hands. And the hands represent behavior and conduct. Well, we’re trying to teach young people, we’re trying to code young people with the character traits. Because based upon what’s in my head and heart, if I’ve been coded with these character traits, the discipline, the selflessness, the humility, then my behaviors then will reflect those actions that ultimately lead to what’s going to help me become successful, what’s going to help me to become fruitful, and what’s going to help me realize my potential. 

Scarpino: Approximately how many students does the Center serve, say, at the present? 

Bland: Well, the programs go throughout the year, a program ends, a program starts. So far, we’ve had about 1500 young people and parents go through the different programs. 

Scarpino: And does that include both males and females? 

Bland: Yes. 

Scarpino: You offer programs for grades 4 and 5, grades 6 to 8, grades 9 to 12, and you also have eastside programs, which we actually talked about last time. But, as I look through the information on each one of those things, one thing that struck me as common for all the Center’s programming levels is the Imani Book Club. What is that? And why is that provided to everyone at every grade level? 

Bland: Well, Imani Book Club is a program that’s focused on driving literacy. As I was sharing with you earlier, we’ve got this three-part analysis. Where do you want our young people to be? Where are they currently? And then, what’s the programmatic answer or response, what’s the answer? Again, north of the problem, what’s the answer CLD can offer within its mission that helps young people get from here to there? Well, one of those gaps, where are we? One of those gaps is that there’s a major problem with literacy in the African American community. And so, we’ve said that there’s very little likelihood to become a professional business community leader if I am in 10th grade reading at a 6th grade level. So, again, we’re not a school, but from our platform from which we sit, we say, I can’t control 50 million, but if there are 50, we do know that with the 50 that come in, they’re going to get a healthy diet of reading. 

Scarpino: So, when they belong to the Imani Book Club, they read a book and then they come together and discuss it? 

Bland: That’s right. 

Scarpino: Here at the Center? 

Bland: That’s right. 

Scarpino: Okay. Who picks the books? 

Bland: Our program leaders. And so, they’re reading authors they’ve never read. They’re reading authors they haven’t read in school. But for the first time, students are outside of the school -- and incidentally that’s a strategy to say, we want to know what the schools are emphasizing. We want to know what higher education is emphasizing. CLD doesn’t necessarily need to create anything new in terms of a direction or path. In so many ways, we’re just listening to and getting the guidance from schools, higher education, where they’re saying, these are the big deals, these are the issues, these are the gaps. And then we’re coming over to the Center for Leadership Development and saying, well, let’s work on what the educators are saying is a big deal. So, yes, students come outside on a Saturday or on a weekday, and they’ll have a chance to read, “well, this is an interesting author, this is interesting work, I’ve never read anything like this. This is really kind of neat.” Because you have a lot of culturally-relevant material, and a lot of the issues that are going on in society, some of these authors are writing about it. But then they come to the next program, they’re actually doing vocabulary building, but they’re discussing the book and the author. And for the first time, for a number of the young people, this is the first time I’ve actually had a chance for someone to actually take me through a structured or facilitated discussion or a moderated discussion on books and authors and antagonists and protagonists, and what did you get out of it, and why is that a good idea, and why is that a bad idea? It just becomes a first for a number of young people. So, we know literacy is so important, that’s why we say that’s not a topic that you’re going to kind of grade out of, or age out of. Because we always want you to be reading. Whether you’re in middle school, high school, college, beyond college, leaders are readers.  

Scarpino: That’s one of our standard questions, is to ask about leaders and reading. So, your programming for grades six through eight offers many options, but one of them is Precious Miss and the other is Project MR, male responsibility. Precious Miss, what does that entail? 

Bland: It entails, again, ultimately, trying to help young ladies become professional business and community leaders. But then asking, what are the gaps and holes for a middle schooler? What are the gaps and holes that we need to be addressing that increases the likelihood that these young ladies will succeed? So, we deal with the issue of self-concept. We deal with the issues of thinking, and thinking along with emotion, so that emotion devoid of thinking does not predominate my actions and my behavior and my conduct. We’re talking about focus, planning. We talk about surrounding yourselves with peers who have can encourage and affirm these things that we’re messaging. But a lot of is talking about academic performance, but it’s an opportunity to get young ladies to begin to examine where they are and why they are, and then begin to kind of reconstruct an image of what they want based upon how they define themselves versus how a society or peer group wants to define, especially when a society or a peer group is going to define them in a way that actually works to their detriment. We even have a session entitled “I define me.” Well, you define you with the help and guidance of adult mentors or facilitators, female facilitators. But the program in essence says, we understand it’s going to be hard doing some of these other things if there is not, first of all, a good self-concept, and there’s not good self-definition or a value or regard for yourself. So they actually have a Precious Miss pledge. And the pledge is just to speak it with affirmation, it speaks about their excellence, it speaks about their potential. And so that’s why we have the Precious Miss program. It’s all driven towards trying to help young people hit these benchmarks. And then in Project MR, as the name suggests, male responsibility. We want to teach what responsibility is, and we want to teach how responsibility plays out in life, from obeying the parent or not obeying, to obeying the coach, to respecting the teacher, to doing an assignment you’ve been asked to do, to listening to police and respecting their authority. It takes a holistic look of what success looks like, what failure looks like, and then what role responsibility or lack of responsibility plays in helping the person move down the path of success. Or, it looks at the role that irresponsibility plays in helping a young person move down the path of failure, criminality, felonious ways, and the detrimental outcome for themselves and for their families. And at a more fundamental level, when you get into either of these programs, again I’m very basic, at a more fundamental level what you’re going to see young people learning are words. And so, in Precious Miss you’re going to see a word wall. And in the word wall you may see the word “rationale.” So, at a fundamental level, CLD is not saying we know or believe students know all these things. We are saying, we are more inclined to believe that students are failing because they don’t know these things and people are assuming they know them, or the people are saying they should know them, versus saying, well wait a minute, I’m not going to assume that they know them. All we know is that these words, these concepts, seem to be strongly related to success, and people who don’t have them seem to have failure. So let’s actually back up and actually say, here’s a word, can you tell me what this word means? If you can, great. If you cannot, that’s okay, too, because we’re going to teach you. And if you know what it means, then we’re going to actually help you understand how these words are applied in different contexts. So, can anyone tell me what the word “integrity” means? Uh, no... Okay. It’s okay. Can anyone tell... is this word, can anyone pronounce that word for me? Uh, per-se-ver-e, per-sever... uh, perseverance. Anyone know what that word means? Uh, no... Well, that’s interesting because I talk to successful people, they say there’s no way they would have been successful unless they had had, and they name the word, “perseverance,” or, “dignity,” or “curiosity.” And yet the things that they say they needed to become successful are words that you say you can’t even recognize, let alone define. So, it lets us know that we’re in the right place, so young people, we’re going to help you understand these words that successful people say they could not have been successful without. So, that’s what you’re going to get in Precious Miss, you’re going to get that in Project MR, in Self Discovery. You’re going to get that in the tutoring sessions. So in our tutoring sessions, when somebody comes in to tutor, the first move isn’t, what can I help you with today? Is it English? Is it factoring equations? Is it fractions? The first thing that’s going to happen in a tutoring session, the tutor’s going to say, here’s the character trait that we want to introduce today. Do you know what the word “resiliency” means? Uh, no I don’t. That’s okay, this is what “resiliency” means. And then use it in the context of tutoring, this is what a person does when they are resilient, when they are faced with a math problem they don’t understand. This is what a person does when they lack resiliency. So, now, as we go through these sessions and beyond these sessions, what we want you to start doing, Dennis, now that you understand what the word “resilient” means, we want you to become more resilient. We don’t want you to give up the minute you see a problem you don’t understand at first sight. These are some ways you want to approach it. So, it’s the fabric of our programming. Character, as Heraclitus, is a character’s destiny. So, we just happen to believe it. So, you go through CLD looking, you’ll find character traits.  

Scarpino: Right. So I asked you what stands out at the Center, accomplishments while you are president. And now I want to ask you the flip side of that. In the years that you’ve been president since 2000, are there things that you had hoped to do that you just weren’t able to realize? Would you add $2 million, or a bigger building, or more volunteers, or whatever? 

Bland: Well, it’s not tough, but I’m just trying to contemplate even as we recognize that the narrative is still being built. One of the challenges has been maybe not getting as many people in the community interested in, I guess as I like to say, the meals we’re serving. So, because I believe so strongly in the values-based model and the values that we’re emphasizing, and I compare that and contrast it with the high level of failure, my frustration is that there are not more people saying, throw me a lifeline. And the lifeline seems to be the work that you all are doing. So, yes, we have students participating. We have community that’s supporting the work that we’re doing, i.e., through this campaign, and we’re grateful about that. But, for me, it’s all about the life of individuals. And so you see the need that’s out there, you see the number of students we could be serving versus the students we are serving. And then that, combined with the high level of failure, the high level of crime, I won’t be content as long as there are so many people out there who could benefit from what we’re doing but they’re not in the programs. They’ve not been exposed to it. But, again, I say, it’s a values proposition. So many people would say, well CLD only serves people who are going to be successful anyway. I said, well, no, I think that’s too simple an analysis. Or it’s a too simple a judgment, I’m not sure there’s much analysis in it. I said, what I observe is, we have a reading specialist and we have tutors. We have a reading specialist because the reading specialist is actually able to help people who are below grade level in reading. You typically don’t have reading specialists for people who are going to be successful anyway. You typically don’t have a high school readiness program or a reading program for people who are going to be successful anyway. I said, what these programs represent is that, absolutely you want people to become successful, and so following in the Helen Baker tradition, we want these experiences to be of the type that can influence and guide people to take advantage of and actually realize their potential and become successful. But, yet, what I’ve observed is that it’s not CLD doing. It is actually parents who are voting, because children aren’t driving. I hope not, not at 10 years old or 11 years old. Parents are voting their values by where their car orients, or where their GPS takes them. So, what I do see is a number of parents, and there’s nothing wrong with it, but when you say, “I’m taking my kids to sports, and sports, and sports, and more sports,” until there is no time for anything else, then it’s not a CLD issue, parents are actually again voting. Or at the very least, you see those parents who are saying, “Oh, no, I love the sports aspect, but you best believe that what CLD is teaching is more important to me than sports.” In fact, what CLD is teaching is going to actually help them become better sports participants and better citizens and better students. So, it doesn’t have to be either or, but what I see, I see a value system where people are essentially saying through their actions that, “I’m not going to CLD. It’s not that CLD is excluding my son or my daughter. In fact, I live 15 minutes away, and I will not enroll my son or daughter in a Center for Leadership Development program.” But I don’t know that there’s a parent who lives an hour away, and they will drive from Kokomo or Muncie to get their sons or daughters in that same CLD program. That speaks to me, again, where you invest your time, your energy, your resources. And these parents are saying, I value what CLD is teaching. So, hence, what we’re trying to do is change a value system so that more people will say, number one, I’m aware of it, and number two, I want to actually commit my time to going over there. And that’s what I mean when I say character, education, leadership, service and career, I like what you’re cooking, I like what you’re serving. But sometimes if you just want cotton candy, then broccoli doesn’t appeal to you.  

Scarpino: Right. Part of the trick, so to speak, of being successful is you’ve really got to reach the parents, particularly in younger kids. And you have parent education programs. 

BlandThat’s right. That’s why we have a two-generation model, you’ll see that intentionality. Satellite programs have students and parents enrolled. So, you know, success prep, high school readiness programs, students are over in these classes being facilitated, parents are over in these classes being facilitated. Then, yes, we have one program just for our parents, Parents Chat, so you see that intentionality. But again, our hope is, you know, like what wasn’t successful, well, we’re still wanting more parents to be involved and engaged, understanding the role that parents play. But understanding also the reality of life, we understand that some parents are not going to be engaged, and that’s why we come out with these satellite programs that go after students where someone may say, well, you can go down because it’s a block away. I don’t have to drive you, but you can go. And this is why we’re putting these programs in schools, so that during the school day we have an opportunity to partnership with the schools to go right into the schools, offer programs directly to the students. And then when we offer the programs, we’re also dealing with the reality that some students will not have parents involved and are not going to have parents involved. And so we say, all the more reason why we have to try to instill these character traits in those students. Like, if you need a sense of self-regard, then get it. But if you’re a young person who doesn’t have parental involvement, then we need to make sure we give you six and seven and eight dosages of self-regard to make up for the fact that you’re dealing with some circumstance in your home. So this is how we inoculate students. Hey, I want to make sure that you have more perseverance than ever because it’s clear from your life situation you’re going to need it more than this person does. We want to make sure that you have a sense of discipline because you may not have had a father or mother to instill this discipline. So, we want to make sure, again, all the more reason why we don’t say, oh, you’re not going to make it because you don’t have parental engagement. No, we believe, and we expect you to make it, but we also understand candidly that you’re going to need more of these supports. And this is why we need to make sure that we’re that much more intentional about you learning these character traits and these disciplines that help people succeed. 

Scarpino: I’m going to switch back to some questions about leadership, as we look toward wrapping up. There’s a view among people who study leadership more effectively than I do, that sometimes a person’s recognition that they’re a leader or their views on leadership are shaped by an event or a crisis. You know, something happens and they… and I’m wondering, was there an event or a crisis in your life that helped forge your views on leadership? 

Bland: I think it was a combination of things, and not a lot of things, but I guess what comes to mind as I think about your question was the passing of my mother, and then seeing my father, father. And then coming to learn later that here was leadership, quality leadership, and quality leadership in the midst of a crisis. So, it’s like, whatever label, I wasn’t sitting there thinking this was a leader, but in hindsight as I grew older I was, like, oh, man, not only am I seeing quality leadership, but I’m seeing exceptional leadership. And then, I told you I got bused. 

Scarpino:Yes, you do. 

Bland:I got bused into School #105. And I don’t know if we had been there two weeks, three weeks, but there was a gym teacher named Miss Swinehart. And whatever role she played in the school, I just knew she was the gym teacher. But she said after one of these gym sessions, she said, “I would like for you to be our bus guard.” So, you know, so you get the badge. Now, we had those in school, they were the older boys when I was in the neighborhood before busing, and you saw the older -- my brother was one. And, they had the traffic boys, the traffic guards, and the boys, the students, the older students, they kind of had the nice white garb, but then they had that silver badge. Well, when we got bused, this Miss Swinehart asked me, said she would like me to be the guard for the bus. Now, I don’t know what I was doing, I don’t know if I was hitting baskets well or running fast. I don’t know, maybe I was behaving, or just something, but something made her say, “You know, we have traffic guards on buses and we’d like for you to be.” So, here I was in 4th grade, so I’m sitting on this bus and I have this, and the silver badge and just basically your monitoring students, everyone please take a seat. If there are people or any issues, you let Miss Swinehart know. So, I just think there are experiences along the way (inaudible) leadership, whatever this is, or whatever word, because I don’t think she used the word “leadership,” at least I don’t recall. But there were just these things between my father and seeing this is what people who are out front do, and then in this situation with Miss Swinehart, it was, there are some things that you do, and if I give this to you, then there are responsibilities that you have. And so, you have to make sure that you are carrying out these responsibilities, and that means that you can’t be doing these things that the other kids are doing. There’s a different expectation. So, I just think it’s those type of experiences.  

Scarpino: I’ve got a few summary questions here. The first one is, as you think about your career, what are you proudest of? What gives you a sense of accomplishment, like, I made a difference, this is good? 

Bland: I feel best about the fact that I have a genuine love for young people, for society as a whole, and I just want to help. And I think the sense of fulfillment is that there is an opportunity to have the chance to do things to try to make a difference. So just having been given the privilege, having been entrusted with the keys to try to do those things, and then there have been some things that have been successful. So, here are these programs that did not exist before. And, here is this facility that did not exist before. Here are these plans or this campaign to take programs out into satellite locations. I mean, that’s very humbling, but it’s also a recognition that it’s all about trying to help other people. And so, I feel best about having the opportunity to help, and having the opportunity to help more people. And, by the way, just a thought about leadership, I think it’s unconscious that I never talked about the last time, but I just think one of the more fundamental, critical elements of leadership is being healthy. Because as I like to say, sometimes health is just taken so for granted and you don’t talk about it until your leader is injured or hurt. So, I like to say, it’s so important to take care of your health because it’s difficult to lead from a gurney, and it’s about impossible to lead from the morgue.  

Scarpino:That’s true.  

Bland: So, the health piece is critical. 

Scarpino: Again, as you consider your career, do you have any regrets? Is there anything you would’ve changed or done differently? 

Bland: No. One of my frustrations, trying to serve in a nonprofit is hard work. The margins are smaller. You have less room for error. When you’re looking for talent, you’re obviously selecting from a different pool than Lilly is selecting from. So whatever the artful, tactful way is, you’re selecting from a different pool. Your margins, your dollars are smaller, and then you have to actually go out and kill the game, and then cook and prepare the game. 

Scarpino: Right. 

Bland: It’s a lot of work. And one of the challenges for me has been understanding in that non-profit realm where there’s more likelihood for transition, you would wish that there would be more stability or greater options to select people with a certain level of commitment, talent and education level, because you understand then what that means in terms of your ability to make movement.  

Scarpino: Could one conclude that at least one of the keys to being successful in a position like yours is the ability to identify and hire talent? 

Bland: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. 

Scarpino: Do you consider yourself professionally to be a work in progress? 

Bland: Oh, absolutely.  

Scarpino: What are you progressing toward? What do you hope you’re progressing toward? 

Bland: Well, I mentioned those five areas, and I come each day saying, can I build my character? Or are there character traits where I can grow and where I can develop in? How much more skill can I build in the area of competence just knowing the job, knowing the industry, knowing the work? How do I become expert? As I say, I don’t have any less expectation of the work that CLD does than the work that Lilly does or the work that Allison Transmission does, that you’re trying to be excellent at what you do. Again, the resources are different. So, we are just trying to get better. And the same for stewardship. Can I be a better steward? Can I become more accountable? Can we get better results, drive better results? Can we get greater outcomes? Can we get more students who signed up for the program to actually participate in the programs? Can we get students who enrolled in the program, who are going through them, can we get them to finish the programs? So in those areas I’m constantly trying to get better. I certainly need to get better in terms of competency. I need to get better in technology use. How do I keep up? How do I become more relevant and up-to-date with some of the technologies? So, I just think there are so many areas where I can improve as a leader. So, I’m trying to do that. But I think, and I always like to say, humility is yet one of those critical endowments, because as I say, the more arrogant and conceited we are, the less able you are to turn the medicine cap. The more humble you are, the more easily the cap turns, because humility allows the cap to go down and then the cap can turn because it’s been pressed. Humility allows you to turn and adjust and say, yeah, I didn’t know that. Or, yeah, I don’t understand that. Yes, I can improve in this area. Whereas the kind of the arrogant of the stiff neck says, the cap stays, there’s no turning because the person is recalcitrant, the person is full of himself, so you can’t tell him anything. So, I want to be the cap like the doctors say, push down and turn on the medicine... I want to be the person who can actually humble themselves to be able to come down. I always say the more arrogant you are, the more the mind closes up. 

Scarpino: But when you think about humility, if the other quality is confidence and not arrogance, do you think that part of being a leader is the ability to balance humility and confidence? 

Bland: I think, first of all, it just depends on the definitions. Because sometimes we’re using words, but we really have definitions or connotations that are different, so I think that’s what creates the conflict. So, I think humility is just saying, I don’t want an estimation of myself that’s not real. I don’t want an inflated sense of myself. Whereas, confidence, as I understand it, is just saying, I trust what I’m doing. I trust what I’m doing. I trust that I can write this letter. And I think the problem becomes, not when a person is confident, it’s when a person says, not just that I trust that I can do this project, but I’m just sure I’m the only one in the world who can do it. And I’m sure, by the way, that anybody who tries to do that, they’re going to fail because I’m the only one capable of doing it. Now you’re getting into arrogance and over-confidence versus just the trust that I can do this work.  

Scarpino: Is part of leadership, the way you’re describing it, also having the ability to delegate, to let go?  

Bland: Yeah, having the ability to train, having the ability to delegate, having the ability to trust. But it’s also having the ability to understand that there has to be training, or there has to be an assurance that the person has the ability to do it before you let it go. But, in terms of delegating, absolutely. I think in an ideal situation, to my point earlier, you look for that skill and that ability and those talents so that you can delegate. As old people would say, hey man, do you want to just hold on? No, there are too many things I want to do to be trying to hold on. I want to be able to actually have somebody else come in and do some of these things so I can work on some of these other things.  

Scarpino: Professionally, who do you look up to? Who inspires you professionally? 

Bland: I’m inspired by my father. I’m inspired by, as I shared in the other interview, I’m inspired by talented people. I talk about humility a lot. I didn’t ask to become a part of the Commission of Higher Education. Someone reached out to me. And yet, sitting on that commission going back 16 years now, the people that I’ve had a chance to meet, and I think I’ve said this to you before, so I guess I’m consistent, if you go and look at my notes over the 16 years, so much of my notes is actually some compliment about one of my peers that I see based on something said or something done. And, so, I’m admiring these people as I go out and have a chance to interact with, I’m just actually seeing -- I am seeing excellence as a part of my work, or as a part of my service. And I’m learning from that. I’m growing from that. I didn’t have to go to Harvard for that. I didn’t have to go to Notre Dame. I didn’t have to go to IUPUI and take a course. All those things are great, but then I had the benefit of getting that education just by virtue of serving on a committee. So, I speak of humility because I didn’t ask for that, I didn’t buy it. But it also says to me that because you have the blessing and the privilege of having that exposure and you’re conscious of that value, then all the more reason than why I have to take that, learn from it, and employ it in the work and the service that I’m doing for others. So, Chris Murphy at the Commission of Higher Education, these people are just like, when I look at individuals, a certain individual is Gerry Bepko, who used to be the chancellor, well he served on the commission. And I would just there and I’m looking at these individuals and these observations make me come up with this thought: That excellence is not reserved for Lebron James and Major League baseball stars and professional athletes, that there are people who are the Lebron James of banking, the Lebron James of leadership, the Cal Ripken or the Hank Aaron of law and the legal practice, or higher education administration. I’m watching Lebron Jameses and Steph Currys just as a part of my life, but because I’ve had the blessing of understanding that excellence and all-star status isn’t limited to athletes, then I can appreciate so many people just throughout society who are excellent in what they do. So many of those people become my inspiration.  

Scarpino:You mentioned Gerry Bepko a few minutes ago. And just for the sake of anybody looking at this thing in the future, he was a former chancellor of IUPUI. In fact, he’s the person who hired me to do this job many years ago. So, at some point in the future, whenever that is, when you’re getting ready to retire and kind of, you know, lay the burden down, what do you hope your legacy will be? What do you want to be remembered for? 

Bland: Well, having instilled those principles for success and having lived those principles for success is what I care about, and having had the opportunity to expose as many young people as possible, and adults, to these values and this values-based model. And then just, I think, more generally, there’s a song that I learned in church years ago, and for me it sums it all up. And the song says, “If I can help somebody as I pass along, if I can cheer somebody with a word or a song, if I can show somebody he’s traveling wrong, then my living will not be in vain. If I can do my duty as a Christian ought, if I can bring salvation to a world once wrought, if I can spread the message as the master taught, then my living will not be in vain.” I think when it’s all said and done, it’s interesting – somebody asked me, like, what do you want your legacy to be? I’m like, oh my goodness, the legacy, what are we talking about? I mean, literally, that word never crossed my mind. And, mine is just all about, here’s the work… My father says, his wording is, “Man, you gotta job the job.” He said, “you gotta job the job if the job don’t job you.” It was just all about the upbringing, the hard work, help others who need help. And then, all of a sudden, what I found is that in just trying… oh we have more people to help, more people to serve. I mean, literally, when I walk down the stairs, I stop in the College Prep Institute to just kind of see young people learning how to read. It’s like, this is so fulfilling. Or I’ll step into a class, there will be a class, so I’ll step in for a few minutes to just kind of see what’s going on. Like, this is real, this is my life. But, in trying to do that, not once have I ever thought, a legacy. But what I found out, apparently, I guess it’s not a trick or ruse or a put-on, but just in trying to go about doing my work, what has happened is someone else has come along and said, huh, have you thought about your legacy? So, I guess, it’s just kind of like you’re trying to do, just earnestly trying to do your best work and then lo and behold, surprise to you, but someone notices that you’re just trying to do your best work. It was never your intent, like, hey, I’m not trying to -- I’m not talking about legacy or thinking about trying to build a legacy, but someone else would come along and say, hey, what do you want your legacy to be? I helped somebody. 

Scarpino: Two final questions. I ask everybody these questions. The first one is, is there anything that I should have asked you that I didn’t?  

Bland: From a leadership lens, why are there so many ills in society? That’s a great question. 

Scarpino: What do you think the answer to that question is? 

Bland: Because I think society has turned its back on God and faith. So, people say, I hear a lot, hey, there’s so much, hey, they did that, that doesn’t make sense. Or, that happened, oh, man, this is nonsense, it just doesn’t make sense. And my humble perspective is that God owns the general store, and sense is in his storehouse. So, you can’t both turn your back on God and the church and expect things to make sense. If God has the storehouse and sense, fairness, justice, right are in the storehouse, if you turn your back on God then you can only reasonably expect nonsense. And so that’s what I see. There’s what’s called the Black National Anthem, and lift every voice and sing. Well, and people tend to know, and Blacks even tend to know the first stanza, and they’ll bellow it out. And then the second stanza, well, they know a little bit, bits and pieces, but I can kind of make my way through it. Kind of knowing some of the words and listening to somebody next to me, I can make my way through it. And then the third stanza is just kind of like, oh my lordy. And I think people struggle on third stanza, and yet I think it’s interesting because in the third line, the third and final line, I think the words are actually prophetic. The gentlemen who wrote this song, James and Rosamond Johnson, their father was a man of the cloth. And their upbringing seems to come out in the third line, but the third line says -- of course the first line, “Lift every voice and sing till earth and heaven ring, etc.” -- but the third line, God is referenced nine times. And it says, “God of our weary years, God of our silent tears, Thou who hast brought us thus far on the way; Thou who has by Thy might led us into the light, keep us forever in the path, we pray. Lest our feet stray from the places, our God, where we met Thee, lest our hearts, drunk with the wine of the world, we forget Thee; shadowed beneath Thy hand, may we forever stand, true to our God, true to our native land.” As I said, you just kind of look, sit back, be quiet, be thoughtful, be meditative, and just look at the news, listen to the conversations, look at the sparring at school board meetings, it just looks like there’s a society that’s turned its back on God. There’s a society that has not heeded the words of James and Rosamond Johnson. And I say that because I care about society, I care about the human condition. And so, it’s painful what you see.  

Scarpino: Last question. Is there anything you wanted to say that I haven’t given you a chance to say? 

Bland: No, sir. 

Scarpino: Well, then with these recorders still running, I want to thank you, sincerely thank you, on that for myself and the people at the Tobias Center for being kind enough and gracious enough to give me this much time and sit with me for two recording sessions. Appreciate it very much. 

Bland: Oh, sir, thank you for your time. Thank you for taking an interest. It was my honor. 

Scarpino:I’ll go ahead and shut these off, make sure we don’t have live mics. 

(END RECORDING)